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  #1  
Old 04-06-2010
ironanne ironanne is offline
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ironanne
Default Timing of Hip/core and spearing arm

Hi All,

After seeing myself underwater video, I learned that I'm hitting spear target before hips have fully rotated. My hips are flat at the time I hit my target. So seems I'm missing some of the core power. Instructor said that I'm spearing too fas. So its like I'm throwing a punch with arm only, and then core afterwards...if that makes sense?
I've been doing fingertip drag drills, waiting for recovery hand reach my head and then start the hip rotation. Has anyone had similar problem? and/or any suggestions? Its a timing issue and seems very tricky for me. I've read so many times to just focus on the spearing hand, but in my case perhaps too anxious to get it there quickly. Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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You may be stabbing, rather than reaching into, the water with your recovering hand.

I've seen others do this and did it myself for a while, mistakenly thinking that propulsion comes from throwing the arm into the water.

I don't think there's much wrong with putting the hand into the water quite quickly. The question is whether as a result you fail to reach to full extension.

I would suggest concentrating on reaching fully. When you do, you'll find the shoulder of the reaching arm moves forward relative to the other shoulder. When you don't reach properly, it doesn't.
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  #3  
Old 04-06-2010
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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Anne,
One of my favorite focal points early on was roll everything as one unit.

I say this because there are two aspects to timing: placement and movement. From your post, it sounds like you are timing the placement of your hand well - that is that you are beginning to spear as you begin to roll. But your movement is off. It sounds like you are just separating the roll from the arm. So thinking of the body, from toes to wrist rolls as one unit helped me. Other people have focused on driving the wrist from the hip. Once in a while, someone feels it by thinking roll more sharply (so the hips catch up to your hand).

Your issue is very common. Our trick will be finding the cue that will tie the movements together for you.
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  #4  
Old 04-06-2010
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CoachBobW CoachBobW is offline
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The previous responses are all helpful but I'd like for you to experiment with this from another angle.
1. are you fully preparing the hips to provide the 'oomph' you're seeking?
Imagine you're standing in a square room facing north. Turn the feet towards NorthEast and bring the right hip towards South. You will feel the lower back and hips somewhat coiled up like a spring and ready to release.
Most swimmers do a pretty good job off preparing the hip on the breathing side and no so much on the other.
Remember that hips are rotating thru the density of the water and it's resistance while the arm is flying thru less resistant air.
2. the second thing is overreaching with the spearing arm. If the entry of the spearing hand is too far forward, it will almost always draw the shoulders down ahead of anything the hips are doing. Imagine there is a line running across the pool Left to right. That line would cross the arms at about the elbow if both arms were outstretched at once. Shoot for an entry point comfortably near that imaginary line. You said you were doing some finger tip dragging. If you drag the entire hand, you'll feel a significant deminishing of drag on the hand as it approaches that area. No only does it result in an early entry, the early entry gets the hand more easily positioned for a proper catch.
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBobW View Post

1. are you fully preparing the hips to provide the 'oomph' you're seeking?

Imagine you're standing in a square room facing north. Turn the feet towards NorthEast and bring the right hip towards South. You will feel the lower back and hips somewhat coiled up like a spring and ready to release.
Most swimmers do a pretty good job off preparing the hip on the breathing side and no so much on the other.
Remember that hips are rotating thru the density of the water and it's resistance while the arm is flying thru less resistant air.
.
Hello CoachBob,
I find this incredibly interesting as it reminds me of the way power is generated in a golf swing.
Can you elaborate a bit more on this (from the living room to the pool)?
Are you saying we should feel some tension at the back to have a powerful spear leading to more propulsion? What angles are we talking about for the shoulders / hips / feet? Thanks. ALEX
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  #6  
Old 10-19-2010
bsaaditya bsaaditya is offline
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Glad this thread was starred or I would've missed it!

On my previous video post one of the points I got as feedback was that I was 'twisting' at the stomach rather than rolling as a unit, and though at the time I thought it was definitely counterproductive, after reading CoachBobW's post, I'm wondering if I was just 'preparing the hip' for the roll.

Alex's questions are very pertinent and would help me a great deal if they're answered in detail, as I'm sure they will be :)
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2010
bsaaditya bsaaditya is offline
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Um, anyone care to pitch in? :) Maybe I can break down my question and elaborate a little more about my situation:

1. I've noticed that my toe flick happens just after my spearing arm enters. I take it that's a good thing.

2. My body-roll is more acute from shoulder to stomach, and the muscles around my hips tend to act as stabilizers. But my hips and butt aren't tensed or anything, they're just not rolling as much, which might look like I'm twisting at the stomach. Is this lossy technique?

I'll upload a video soon, hopefully. That should help. In the meantime, I'm open to some theory about this, if anyone might be so inclined.
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  #8  
Old 10-23-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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i'm starting to feel the power of the pelvis in my stroke. last night, i cocked (rotated) my pelvis back slightly (to the south, as Coach Bob wrote) during recovery, and i felt that that starting position unleased a lot more force in both my kick and my spear. i have miles to go in terms of timing yet, but there is definitely more power to be gained from using my pelvis better.
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  #9  
Old 10-23-2010
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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Default the elvis tiltN pelvis once again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
i'm starting to feel the power of the pelvis in my stroke. last night,
i cocked (rotated) my pelvis back slightly (to the south, as Coach Bob wrote) during recovery,

and

i felt that that starting position unleashed a lot more force in both my kick and my spear.
ti have miles to go in terms of timing yet, but there is definitely more power to be gained from using my pelvis better.
this the WIND-UP
You were askN me for?

the student will tell you the answer...
I wish I could of gave you the answer once again, but
I am getting much whisperN or yellN ya got it!

BUT I have becomes a much better at listenN to you guys


it looks like the is another flaw in the process! Right
i edit later i have to run to latin dance where
my pelvic reaches all four corners



go flppr
Im follwN

Last edited by splashingpat : 10-23-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-23-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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FLPPR: CoachBOB:

You seem to understand the living room analogy better than I do...

Let's assume I am swimming (Skate position, recovery with right arm)...
a. Face is down
b. Shoulders are rotated 45degrees (right shoulder clearing the water)
c. Hips are rotated 45degrees (same as shoulders I guess)
d. Feet are 45 degrees as well (same as Hips)

What is the meaning of "right hip south"?
1. While shoulders stay at 45degrees, the right hip has to rotate slightly more (may be 50degrees)?
Or perhaps
2. Spearing arm gently entering the water, shoulders start a slight rotation .... while hips stay coiled until the 2BK?

It sounds interesting but when we do zipper (zen) skating I thought the shoulder and hip angles are the same? Thanks. ALEX

Last edited by Alex-SG : 10-23-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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