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  #21  
Old 02-13-2016
coachdinah coachdinah is offline
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Great Suzanne! I also practiced some one arm free, and then one arm with gently closed fist this morning. The awareness of core function and stability was fabulous. The subtle differences between open hand and gently closed fist brought sensations I find harder to feel in WS free.

Then I went on to a backstroke practice - the use of core to stabilize and engage the catch was the best I have felt, and the stroke felt powerful yet effortless.

Can't wait till the next swim!
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  #22  
Old 02-14-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Suzanne, if you would hold a 1.40-1.45m/100y pace and would go from a 17 str/25y to a 24 strokes/25y at the same pace, how would the stroke change?
You are going from a very high gear to a light touch, highy rpm low gear. (Not talking about spinning the wheels, just shifting your bike to a different gear at the same speed.)
Is there a moment where the the stroke changes character, or going through a transition? Where do you feel the high strokerate is starting to hurt general efficiency?
When I try to swim a certain 80% effort pace going from 14 strokes/25m to 20 str/25m the 2 strokes are 2 different freestyles. Still not sure which one I like more.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-14-2016 at 08:56 AM.
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  #23  
Old 02-14-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Suzanne, if you would hold a 1.40-1.45m/100y pace and would go from a 17 str/25y to a 24 strokes/25y at the same pace, how would the stroke change?
You are going from a very high gear to a light touch, highy rpm low gear. (Not talking about spinning the wheels, just shifting your bike to a different gear at the same speed.)
Is there a moment where the the stroke changes character, or going through a transition? Where do you feel the high strokerate is starting to hurt general efficiency?
When I try to swim a certain 80% effort pace going from 14 strokes/25m to 20 str/25m the 2 strokes are 2 different freestyles. Still not sure which one I like more.
right now I'm still rebuilding up endurnace/strength/ consistency.

The higher SPLs (20-21-22) generally included a dropped elbow and sideways bending or sinking of the core, neither of which feel "good". The lower SPLs included a firm core that doesn't buckle with increased rate of rotation. For me it's less a matter of liking one more, but which one I can currently sustain. Things keep changing though. Thanks for the question.
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Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #24  
Old 02-15-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Strange, in my case a lower gear.higher rate shifts effort from the arms to the core rotation (2b) kick action, decreasing pressure under the arms, so holding a high elbow becomes easier.
Differnt folks, differnt strokes perhaps.
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  #25  
Old 02-16-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Strange, in my case a lower gear.higher rate shifts effort from the arms to the core rotation (2b) kick action, decreasing pressure under the arms, so holding a high elbow becomes easier.
Differnt folks, differnt strokes perhaps.
Well, i'd add different folks, different times different strokes. What you say happens to me as well. The small muscles used on maintaining core, or maintaining elbow postion all need to be developed, and it's not linear. For me the faster tempos when I am fresh DO have a higher elbow...but when I get fatigued, the elbow drops which shortens the SL. It's a circular improvement. Having options and practicing gears in way that allows ongoing awareness of skills, designing practices to push limits, improve limiters and not blow up progress that i've made is what makes swimming & coaching so much fun.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #26  
Old 02-20-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Today I finally had a chance to repeat pratice set #1 again. I was afraid I'd have lost what little fitness I had built since I've been workign a ton, and then required 2-3 days to recovery from work and didn't feel well at all.

But I headed to the pool and was shocked that during my tuneup, my neck did not hurt AT ALL! Even left sided breathing felt easy, and pain free. I wanted and waited to see when the neck pain would show up, and ou know what? it never did!

I'm soooooo excited about that! Party my focus on breathing mechanics as well as the good work my chiropractier is doing.

1650 SCY JCC Squirrel Hill Feb 19 2016 (5x200 main)

Tuneup:
2 Rounds 75 as
25 rib side, 25 hip nudge, 25 toe flick

2 Rounds 50 one armed swimming, non-stroking arm at side, breathing left only as:
25 Open Hand right arm, 25 open hand left arm
25 Closed hand right arm, 25 closed hand left arm

5 x 50
#1 Focus breath left only
#2 Easy swim (resulted 17/18 SPL)
#3-5 Add 1 stroke/length & descend


Main Set:

5 x 200 on 30 sec rest:


Cooldown:
100IM
50 fast Free


Results:
Tuneup: stunned to feel zero neck discomfort. Continued to foucs on rotation of hips, toe flick to help head arrive at breathing. Continued to focus on minimizing head wiggle/movement with stroking to minimize distance to air for left side breath.

Main Set: (30 sec rest)
This Week Last Week
Pace Cycles Pace Cycles
3:31 79 3:36 80
3:34 82 3:35 84
3:33 80 3:36 81
3:30 84 3:36 85
3:27 84 3:31 92


Comments:

19 seconds faster this week, with a total time of 17:35.

All around faster this week with a range of 3:27 to 3:34, last week 3:31 to 3:36. I added 10" to the rest interval this week, 30 seconds comapred to 20 seconds. Fastest repeat 4 seconds faster and slowest repeat 2 seconds faster. Meanwhile my SPL was lower for every round as well. So increased speed was from a combination of longer strokes & faster rate.

How do I know faster rate? Because I know my rate is slower than 2 seconds per stroke cycle. Adding a second to this weeks time for every stroke cycle less that I took, I was still faster by 3-4 seconds each round on average when the lower SPL (longer length) is accounted for. So I'll take that into acocunt for the next set I do, 10x100s main set.

Plan:
The next set is the 10x100. I'll try to do a tempo set again. I noted last time my tempos of 1.15 - 1.25 felt way to slow ,and finally felt comfortable around 1.05 - 1.08.

This week I'll try starting at 1.00, go up in increments of .04 and back down in .02 for this pattern. The 1 minute rest from last time should be adequate to change TT, and recovery between them.

1.00, 1.04, 1.08, 1.12, 1.10, 1.08, 1.06, 1.04, 1.02, 1.00
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle


Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 02-20-2016 at 06:06 AM.
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  #27  
Old 02-20-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachdinah View Post
Great Suzanne! I also practiced some one arm free, and then one arm with gently closed fist this morning. The awareness of core function and stability was fabulous. The subtle differences between open hand and gently closed fist brought sensations I find harder to feel in WS free.

Then I went on to a backstroke practice - the use of core to stabilize and engage the catch was the best I have felt, and the stroke felt powerful yet effortless.

Can't wait till the next swim!
Dinah thanks for the idea of the one arm free / OAF to aid with the breathing. Works like a charm
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #28  
Old 02-20-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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1650 SCY JCC Squirrel Hill 02/20/2016 (10x100 tempo set)

Round #2 of 10x100 tempo set. Tempos adjusted based on results of prior rounds. See those commentaries for details.

TUNEUP:
4 x 75 Tossed IM Salad (FL, BK, BR; BK,BR,FR; BR,FR,FL; FR,FL,BK)
4 x 50 add 1 SPL & increase tempo

Main:
10 x 100 on 1 minute, Assymettric Tempo Pyramid as:
1.00, 1.04, 1.08, 1.12, 1.10, 1.08, 1.06, 1.04, 1.02, 1.00

Cooldown:
25s each: UDK on back, BK, BR kick on back, BR
1 x 50 Free Easy.

Results:
Tempo Pace Cycles
1.00 1:38 39
1.04 1:40 39
1.08 1:42 39
1.12 1:41 37
1.10 1:41 37
1.08 1:41 38
1.06 1:41 39
1.04 1:41 39
1.02 1:41 41
1.00 1:38 39



Commntary:
from 1.0 up to 1.12 and back to 1.08 Spl 16.5-19 times 1:39-1:41

@ Tempo of 1.06, I felt fluid but getting tired! 1:40

Getting sloppy @1.04 21 spl and 1:41

1.02 1:40.77 stopped counting strokes, still breathing q3

1.00 1:38.46 q2 breathing slop slop! First 2 lengths 18&19 spl though.


Next Steps:
Great progress from last week, I'm narrowing down my comfortable tempos, and still staying well within my Green Zone for a 25 yd pool. In addition all of these times were 2-6 seconds faster than the same set last week, which was all strenuous and the day I noted significant neck discomfort breathing to the left.

Fatigue first set in at about 1200 yards, but that was the ame tempo that felt pretty good. Even back down to 1.00 sec/stroke at the end my first two lengths were a strong 18/19 SPL.

My next round is the 5 x 4 x 50. I am considering doing a set of tempos around 1.0 and trying to hit 18/19 SPL for all of them. This would be my first workout of this project trying to deliberately hit 2 stroke parameters at the same time, and not just gathering up data.

For 5 rounds I could go 4 x 50 each of:
1.00, .98, 1.00, 1.02, 1.00 (or go up/down by .03). That way I"ll hit 1.00 3 times instead of just twice if I do an ATP. Kind of a musical "trill" set!

I think I'll try the .03 steps. SO there you have it.

5 x 4x 50 at each tempo, targeting 18/19 SPL for each:
Set 1 1.00
Set 2 1.03
Set 3 1.00
Set 4 0.97
Set 5 1.00
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #29  
Old 02-21-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Suzanne, if you would hold a 1.40-1.45m/100y pace and would go from a 17 str/25y to a 24 strokes/25y at the same pace, how would the stroke change?
You are going from a very high gear to a light touch, highy rpm low gear. (Not talking about spinning the wheels, just shifting your bike to a different gear at the same speed.)
Is there a moment where the the stroke changes character, or going through a transition? Where do you feel the high strokerate is starting to hurt general efficiency?
When I try to swim a certain 80% effort pace going from 14 strokes/25m to 20 str/25m the 2 strokes are 2 different freestyles. Still not sure which one I like more.
Rereading this a week later, I'd say a 1:40/100 at 17 spl would feel fine...strong and smooth, and a 1:40/100 pace at 24 SPL would feel terrible. But a week ago maybe not.

Today I swam a 1:38 at 18/19 and it felt very good, and my SPL never got over 20, so already i've improved a lot. I TRIED tos wim a 22 SPL today during my warmup and I was unable to get that many strokes in.

My core is more solid and I'm lengthening my body line on each side without collapsing at my waist, so that accounts for a longer SL and fewer strokes.

I will keep you appraised.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #30  
Old 02-21-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I am playing a lot with finding freestyles paddle and float or statue of liberty styles.

If you stay within the lineair TI style and switch form long lline right or long line right, longer strokes feel best and shortening the stroke is like breaking the streanline.
If you deliberately shorten the stroke at the front and back to go to a rotary connected stroke connecting strokes without glide you go to a more 3D curved motion style.
For me its balancing a compromise between more whole body propulsion at the cost of some streamline, or missing some of that rotational power and being more streamlined.
I think a lot has to do with the strokerate.
I just need some minimal strokerate to build power in the stroke.
When swimmig faster lenghtening the stroke seems to be a bitter choice again because then the strokerate is there.

I have read Coach Eric had similar experiences during his swim journey, so I think I send him a mail to hear what his opinion is now.
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