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  #21  
Old 02-07-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post

Sun Yang, looked very leisurely at .9
How leisurely do our own lengths feel at 0.9 or a similar fast end tempo for the first length of a set?

Sun Yang's timing is so precise that he can hold that leisurely appearance for 1500m.

For me the first 25m at tt0.9 feels effortless, however, as soon as I make the first turn both mentally or physically I might move 2-3% outside the sweet spot of the rhythm that I need to start thinking about the timing rather than just feeling it and thus fatigue quickly.

Perhaps we can all learn from Sun Yang here, if you measure his stroke rate for 200m or even 100m if you can find any and note the percent difference between 200m and 1500m it may give you a ball park to make similar personal changes to one's own stroke rate, as the longer the distance goes up, the more important precise timing (and thus energy efficiency) becomes?

Its also for me a reason to practice extreme tt settings regularly, so that my neural timing capacities can hold 0.9 over a mile even if my aerobic engine is not yet capable of that.
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  #22  
Old 02-07-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
How leisurely do our own lengths feel at 0.9 or a similar fast end tempo for the first length of a set?

Sun Yang's timing is so precise that he can hold that leisurely appearance for 1500m.

For me the first 25m at tt0.9 feels effortless, however, as soon as I make the first turn both mentally or physically I might move 2-3% outside the sweet spot of the rhythm that I need to start thinking about the timing rather than just feeling it and thus fatigue quickly.

Perhaps we can all learn from Sun Yang here, if you measure his stroke rate for 200m or even 100m if you can find any and note the percent difference between 200m and 1500m it may give you a ball park to make similar personal changes to one's own stroke rate, as the longer the distance goes up, the more important precise timing (and thus energy efficiency) becomes?

Its also for me a reason to practice extreme tt settings regularly, so that my neural timing capacities can hold 0.9 over a mile even if my aerobic engine is not yet capable of that.
Andy, will you measure those different rates for us?? I'm very curious!! :) (But too lazy to look thing sup)
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  #23  
Old 02-07-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Changing a tiny thing in your stroke can make the difference between a good day and a bad one.


Today was day 6 in a row for me on my annual self coached training camp month in Florida.

I wasn't aware of any fatigue this morning but really struggled to move in the water.

Today I had set myself a task of 8x240yd intervals on descending tt as a main set, trying to hold SPL.

warm up 300yds

main set

1. tt1.23 time 4:24
2. tt1.20 time 4:18
3. tt1.17 time 4:17
4. tt1.14 time 4:17

a few months ago I would probably have changed tactic at this point and started to do something to rebuild my confidence like single 25's low SPL

instead I took a 2 minute comfort break and when I got back in the pool I realized the front of my stroke today had been spearing into the water rather than having a desire to move me forwards so I set about correcting this:

5. tt1.11 time 4:02
6. tt1.08 time 3:55
7. tt1.05 time 3:47

I was so pleased to have rescued today's mission.

Coach, I'll count Sun Yang later and report.
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  #24  
Old 02-07-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Andy, will you measure those different rates for us?? I'm very curious!! :) (But too lazy to look thing sup)
Suzanne, read this instead of measuring it

http://www.camelbackcoaching.com/sun...-world-record/

according to the article, his 1500m stroke rate is 0.96 which we tend to agree with and all out sprint for the last 50m 0.75 or in % terms 22% slower for a mile than 50m.

My comfy 25m sprint TT (the lowest I can be confident of not breaking down on) is about 0.87, so that would give me a 1500m target tt in the range of 1.05-1.10 which intuitively feels spot on as at the moment I tend to be 1.14-1.20 and I normally finish with way too much energy left.

interesting.

1.08 is also about the lowest TT I can maintain subconscious rhythm for repeat laps so there could be something in this data point.
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2013
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira Horan View Post
Interval Time Distance Avg Pace
1 1:40.6 100 1:40
:20 sec rest
2 3:18.1 200 1:39
:30 sec rest
3 4:56.9 300 1:39
:30 sec rest
4 6:34.1 400 1:38

I set the tempo trainer to 1.25

My stroke count was an average of 14 for the 100 and an average of 16 for the 200, 300 and 400
Moira
Something's amiss with your data. If you averaged 16SPL on 200-300-400 vs 14SPL on 100 @1.25 tempo, then you'd have taken 8 additional strokes per 100 on the three longer distances.
8 strokes x 1.25 = 10 seconds/100.
So how did you improve pace/100 by 1 second on the 200 and 300 then 2 seconds on the 400 while adding 2SPL?

Did the Garmin get stroke count?
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2013
coachdinah coachdinah is offline
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results from yesterdays bts, in yards, 45sri btn distances, tt 1.25:

distance/time/pace
100/1:30/1:30
200/3:06/1:33
300/4:42/1:34
400/6:21/1:35

notes:
1.turns were suboptimal
2.sc was in 14-16 range, see note 3.
3.during the swim, my focus shifted from counting strokes to detecting and correcting a slight difference in torso rotational angle and alignment (R lead). this sensation has been recently highlighted in the endless pool and the bts swim was the first time ever feeling it in a regular pool. this was my a-ha moment.

Dinah
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2013
AWP AWP is offline
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Dinah,
If I may, a curious thought popped in my head and can't resist asking .
If you were to repeat this set, how would you approach it?
What would you want to change or keep the same?
And, what set would follow it?
I guess these questions can be for anyone doing this set, thanks.
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2013
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP View Post
If when attempting this practice you find you haven't quite hit the all the way you'd like or feel "gased", maybe then take the extra stroke or two on that length and "re-boot" on the way down and try again.
Fun stuff, takes loads of tries.
Another good insight from Alan. When I did the original bts in this thread I was trying, unsuccessfully, to keep my SPL at 14 throughout the set. But as the distance increased I experienced two challenges to doing so
1) Coming up a bit short on the wall on my 14th stroke. If I did so I could either concede and take the 15th stroke before turning. Or I could glide/wait a bit and hit the wall--usually a bit weakly. Which meant it would be even harder to complete the next length in 14 strokes.
2) After a length or two of coming up slightly short of a well-timed turn on my 14th stroke, I'd add power to my stroke (well-integrated power to be sure, but still it has a metabolic cost) and find myself feeling a little bit 'gassed' as Alan said, going into the turn. That sensation usually promises more trouble ahead in maintaining the target SPL.

So on the 400, once I began finding it difficult to complete laps in 14SPL, I hit on the strategy of choosing--from the start of the length--rather than conceding at the end--to take 15SPL. That allowed me to relax a bit, giving the 'reboot' Alan describes. After choosing 15, I felt recovered enough to hit an easier 14 on the next, and maybe the next two. I saved up enough energy that way to hold 14 on the last 100 of the 400, giving me a strong finish to the set.
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2013
Moira Horan Moira Horan is offline
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Terry, yes, I used my Garmin 910 but I also count and maintained a stroke between 14 and 16.

Here is the file, I'm not sure about the difference but I don't think I had warmed up enough before I started, I did think the 100 felt like a harder effort at that tempo than the longer swims. I haven't done much swimming with the tempo trainer.

http://connect.garmin.com/splits/270375699
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  #30  
Old 02-12-2013
AWP AWP is offline
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Some highlights from yesterday's practice
Monday February 11 Y 25 yard pool
400 medley continuous tune-up. (7:32)
4x100 medley
Avg. 1:48. (7:12)
I was glad to feel competent on the tune-up, however noticed I still 'struggle' to begin with a more efficient count on my backstroke and breast stroke lengths. It seems at this point I still need to either completely focus on those particular lengths or warm my way up to more efficient/effective counts.
On the broken set I was able to maintain a constant pace and focusing on making my stroke count for each stroke style more efficient (taking less or more effective ones). To do so. Now I need to string those together...

Freestyle ladder 100s
100. (1:27)
200. (2:56)
300 as 3x100
(1:27- 1:28- 1:27). ((4:22))
I planned on doing the ladder set mid week (and still will) but had the inclination to slip it in here, even in part. I told myself that if I couldn't match pace on the 200 then I would break down the rest of the set. Well, I was off by 2 second. And so broke down the 300 repeat.
I was able to match pace almost precisely but for the second repeat being off by one second, and I recall that it was on the third length of that repeat where I would lose ground, one stroke too many, a non-effective stroke. Could have also been a less than optimal push off the wall...
Although it seemed satisfactory, I was keeping pace, and I did feel more ease on the third repeat I felt I'd stop there and get my 400 elsewhere.

400 'medley'
50BK. (:57)
50BK EZ
50BR. (:57)
50FR EZ
50BR. (:55)
50FR EZ
100FR @ 60spl. (1:23)
I continued to feel succes in my approach to my breast stroke matching time with my back 50 on first repeats and descending by 2 seconds and only one more stroke.
After this mental clearing of the slate, I needed to finish with a w00FR and happy to see a 4 second savings from the last 100. I kept all lengths @ 15spl where in the previous set I was mixing combos of stroke lengths per pool length, which seemed to keep me in the prescribed pace but left me with a desire for a better sense of ease.

Post warm down
Bonus 50FR 28spl. (:39 a glimpse of :38)
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