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  #21  
Old 02-28-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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ian mac
Default Show us your proof

Andy, I tend , as usual, to agree with swim2bfree. The whole point of neural threshold and ninja like pacing is to gradually adapt to faster swimming. You must improve one or both variables of stroke length and stroke rate to get faster.

I think it naive or just inexperienced to presume that you can suddenly develop a new strategy on race day that hasn't been imprinted through constant practice. That's where the neural part comes in.

To blithely write that the norm for stroke rate should be 60-70 strokes/minute again is far too broad a statement. My stroke rate is much higher for the 100 than the 800. A 190cm person will have a different stroke rate than someone 165cm.Make sure that you can back up your claims with proof.
Ian
  #22  
Old 02-28-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I'm not sure Andy was saying don't practice it until race day...How else would you know what the tradeoff was?

Going back to Terry's "Formula for a faster 1650" thread, he outlines at the beginning a progressive approach which includes Andy's suggestions as well as yours.
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian mac View Post
Andy, I tend , as usual, to agree with swim2bfree. The whole point of neural threshold and ninja like pacing is to gradually adapt to faster swimming. You must improve one or both variables of stroke length and stroke rate to get faster.

I think it naive or just inexperienced to presume that you can suddenly develop a new strategy on race day that hasn't been imprinted through constant practice. That's where the neural part comes in.

To blithely write that the norm for stroke rate should be 60-70 strokes/minute again is far too broad a statement. My stroke rate is much higher for the 100 than the 800. A 190cm person will have a different stroke rate than someone 165cm.Make sure that you can back up your claims with proof.
Ian
Ian, you have 40 years of racing and training experience and have posted your national ranked results, so my comments aren't aimed at you.

The point of my post was to share my experience as a relative new swimmer that whilst I found it quite easy to swim a pace of 1.40 or lower for 100m with a stroke rate of 1.3-1.4, I spent 6 months struggling to hold that SR and pace for 400-800m.

Once I traded some stroke length and took my SR up to 1.1-1.2, holding a pace of 1.40-1.45 came in a matter of days not months.

My reference to higher cadence on race day was with respect to Terry's earlier posts about how he will devote more time to low SPL 'heavy gear' training pre season and gradually shift to higher SR as the racing season approaches. Suzanne has understood me, I wasn't suggesting training at one tempo and racing at another, rather trying to acknowledge the benefits of training with lower SR and SPL, but to highlight to others that picking up SR above 50 for longer distances can actually be easier than trying to maintain 35-40.

It comes back to my brick moving thoughts of last year. What's the fastest way to move 6,000 paving stones 20 ft across a driveway? 3 stones at a time and 2,000 trips or 6 stones at a time and 1,000 trips? Well if it was a race then you would probably try to take 4 in 1,500 trips but do some training with 6 stones to make the 4 feel more comfortable.

I agree that suggesting a SR of 60+ would have been more accurate than 60-70 since there are athletes (especially women) that maintain SR up to high 80's for long distant events.

I cannot supply you with proof as SR isn't reported in results. My little area of competitive swimming is UK open water. In my first race last year 140 swimmers from 3,500 finished the mile course in a time under 25 minutes and I am confident at least 130 of them had a stroke rate of 60 or more.


I am quite happy to make some naive and inexperienced comments on this forum, for me that's the point. The student who asks the most questions in class is often the one who learns fastest. That's why I leave my times on my signature, so anyone reading my comments are aware of my swimming ability and can judge my opinions and thoughts for themselves.
  #24  
Old 02-28-2012
terry terry is offline
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Default The Virtue of the Beginner's Mind

Andy is a swimming novice and happily acknowledges it. He seems to recognize that the noteworthy advantage of being a novice is the freedom of having few fixed concepts, so that every experience has value in being able to fill in a blank space or clarify an earlier concept.
Swim2bfree is handicapped by a fixed concept that there's a TI Diktat that only low stroke rates and counts are 'good.' Perhaps it brings him a certain comfort to persist in that mindset.
Ian's worldview may be somewhat narrowed by a fairly keen racing focus. Nothing wrong with that, but the value you assign various experiences is likely be more heavily weighted toward the possibility they will help you swim faster for a particular range of distances.

In an earlier thread I posted a pop quiz which asked what people thought the application might be of four 'quadrants' of SPL/Tempo combinations.
LOW TEMPO - LOW SPL
HIGH TEMPO - LOW SPL
LOW TEMPO - HIGH SPL
HIGH TEMPO - HIGH SPL
(Obviously the range of 'Low' and 'High' SPL will differ at Low Tempo and at High Tempo. The main element is the sort of task you're giving your nervous system.)

I practice all of those combinations at different times. But my motivations for doing so can be quite varied, including all of the following:
- To vary patterns of muscle recruitment - less tissue vs more.
- To do practice activities that are physically arduous and cognitively difficult
- To produce Flow States and enjoyment
- To keep my brain healthy
- To train neural adaptability that I may use in a racing situation.
- And occasionally to rehearse for a very particular racing situation

I like and value swimming specifically because it allows me to craft such varied experience and imprints.
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Last edited by terry : 02-28-2012 at 03:03 PM.
  #25  
Old 02-28-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Swim2bfree is handicapped by a fixed concept that there's a TI Diktat that only low stroke rates and counts are 'good.' Perhaps it brings him a certain comfort to persist in that mindset.
Terry, you're putting thoughts in my head again. Unfortunately, it's one of your more common and juvenile debating tactics. Easy to knock down a strawman. Please address my actual comments.
  #26  
Old 02-28-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I cannot supply you with proof as SR isn't reported in results. My little area of competitive swimming is UK open water. In my first race last year 140 swimmers from 3,500 finished the mile course in a time under 25 minutes and I am confident at least 130 of them had a stroke rate of 60 or more.
I think this is an issue of correlation vs. causation. Yes, it's rare to see "fast" swimmers (even at ultra-marathon distances) with sub-60 stroke rates. Even in the 60-70 range - these swimmers are likely to be male and very tall. But it's probably the wrong approach for a swimmer who "aspires" to swim fast, to focus on attaining a 60+ stroke rate. This is where the "neural threshold"-type sets are useful.

I'm still interested to hear more about open water, though. Does TI endorse trading length for rate in OW, and if so, what are the specific conditions that warrant it?
  #27  
Old 02-28-2012
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Does TI endorse trading length for rate in OW, and if so, what are the specific conditions that warrant it?
There's not a single black/white answer.
In conditions with lower wave/swell frequency (i.e. longer wave-length) I've found that a spearing emphasis combined with a focus on maintaining better SL bring me better results.
In conditions with higher wave/swell frequency and particularly 'confused' water patterns, I get better results by giving up length and going with a faster, lighter stroke, but can only make this work well if I keep my stroke quiet and avoid splash and water disturbance.
And in longer swims - 5k, 10k up to marathons - I've found the ability to vary my stroking pattern, going back and forth from longer and stronger to higher rate and lighter touch, an effective fatigue-management strategy.

When racing I want to have more arrows in my quiver than those I'm competing with. Neurally-oriented training means those instruments of pacing are far more precise than otherwise.

You have indeed repeatedly suggested that TI Training is Johnny-One-Note advocacy of a low rate, high length stroke. The fact is that this is only the first step in a long-term process. Unskilled swimmers cannot access the skill choices I describe without a lengthy and patient period of replacing their survival-stroking instincts with a wired-in unhurried, relaxed, sustainable stroke.

And I would estimate that some 90% of our students and followers will realize most of their valued goals mainly with that kind of swimming.

We advocate they go beyond, not primarily to make them faster, but because it's part of the Kaizen philosophy. Faster happens.
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My TI Story

Last edited by terry : 02-28-2012 at 08:06 PM.
  #28  
Old 02-29-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
In conditions with higher wave/swell frequency and particularly 'confused' water patterns, I get better results by giving up length and going with a faster, lighter stroke
It sounds like we agree on that topic, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
And in longer swims - 5k, 10k up to marathons - I've found the ability to vary my stroking pattern, going back and forth from longer and stronger to higher rate and lighter touch, an effective fatigue-management strategy.
That's an interesting strategy. Personally, I prefer to keep my stroke rate within as tight a range as possible over the course of a given swim. Two exceptions: if conditions change or if I need to increase speed for tactical reasons (e.g., passing another swimmer). I don't think my approach is necessarily better than yours... just a personal choice. For fatigue management, I've found that backstroke and caffeine both work wonders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
You have indeed repeatedly suggested that TI Training is Johnny-One-Note advocacy of a low rate, high length stroke. The fact is that this is only the first step in a long-term process. Unskilled swimmers cannot access the skill choices I describe without a lengthy and patient period of replacing their survival-stroking instincts with a wired-in unhurried, relaxed, sustainable stroke.
This might surprise you, but I agree with everything after the first sentence. That said, a fairer reading of my postings on this forum would show that when I do disagree with you, it usually has to do with intellectual over-reach - that yours is the one and only way, and that everyone else needs to be "enlightened."

At least I engage with you. Others might (and do) just ignore you.

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Faster happens.
To some extent.
  #29  
Old 02-29-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Andy is a swimming novice and happily acknowledges it.
I would prefer apprentice, it better describes my intentions. :)
  #30  
Old 02-29-2012
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I would prefer apprentice, it better describes my intentions. :)
Much better articulated.
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May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
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