Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Favorite Practices and Sets
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-09-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default apologies

Just wanted to post a quick apology (to Coach Bill in particular) if my reply last evening was critical in any way. Sometime I can be a little to "matter of fact" and slightly opinionated. I still stand behind my thoughts, but in now way did I intend to suggest that Coach Bill's comments were not accurate.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

  #12  
Old 02-09-2012
CoachJohnB's Avatar
CoachJohnB CoachJohnB is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 162
CoachJohnB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Novak View Post
I absolutely love this!!!

I've got a few questions:
1) What's are some of the best way to find swimmers' paces? And then how do we convert this to a specific SPL and tempo.

The tempo part seems like I could figure out (do 50's at descreasing tempo until their time gets slower), however, how do we know what Stroke Count to assign to the swim?

2) It's exciting to think of the goal being to maintain the same number of strokes at decreasing tempos over time. Would it also be the goal to see if a swimmer could decrease the number of strokes at the same tempo? Is there a way to determine which side of the equation to attack?

3) How would we know if it were appropriate to raise the stroke count at some point instead of lower it? Could this ever be the case?

Joe, do you have any footage from your racing days of you swimming in practice or a race?
  #13  
Old 02-10-2012
CoachBillG CoachBillG is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 30
CoachBillG
Default

Actually, I wasn't referring to Maffetone at all and never mentioned him. His angle is the utilization of fat as the primary source of fuel as opposed to glycogen and is based on the individual's respiratory quotient (RQ). That is more methodology, not mythology ;-)

What I am referring to is the point of exertion where if an athlete wanted to, could produce and hold maximum output (both physically and mentally) and not slow down.

I do agree with you that a 30 minute duration is more aerobic based and much less anaerobic, and the shorter the distance the ratio changes. I also agree with you that, yes, physiology speaking it is coined "anaerobic threshold".

However, if the swimmer is swimming the last portion of the TT slower than the first part (which is what usually happens due to fatigue).....when exactly did they hit their "anaerobic threshold"?....because is sure wasn't at the end of the 30 minutes. It was at the point of the TT when they began to slow down and had no ability (physical or mentally) to increase their speed.

I also agree with you that it is very confusing and Joe Friel sure doesn't help alleviate it :-)
  #14  
Old 02-10-2012
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default AT and NT thresholds, race pace

Great stuff Ian. I think I'm hitting neural threshold just reading all of this. Some big brains out here, and I'm not including me in that bunch :-)

It seems like both peak physical and neural adaptations = race pace. I have always thought of periodization as physical and metabolic - not neural. Periodization is simply change with a plan, change occurs with physical plateaus occur, switch gears and "trick" you body into building stronger through rest, then changing up the next phase. It seems like the same must occur with our neural system whether we think about it or not. We know how to build the physical adaptations using periodization model, but seems like the question is how do we incorporate the neural and motor adaptations to gain the most power from the physical changes we experience in base-build-peak phases of periodization. Given this blog and threads, it's the first I thought of this pair in context and surprised it never came up before. I wish I had some pearls of wisdom to answer or ways to think about solving, but cognizant of this pair quite interesting. How do you mix both both neural and physical adaptions as a single unit? Seems like one should feed off of the other.

That said - maybe I've mixed both as a consequence and was not aware or just accepted the outcome as purely physical. The physical is still all aerobic. I'm nowhere near your speeds Ian, probably not in even my lifetime. But doing a 1500m or what I like is 2000m in sets of 500's, 30 sec RI. I do the long sets in 50m pool, 25y too busy for me. No tempo trainer for longer yardage - too distracting for me since I like to change gears at 250 for 50 - slow it down and reset physically and mentally (i.e pause at mail-slot entry, hold lead hand longer, glide, etc). Each 500 desc, negative split. Also bake in quick hip turnover and six beat kick last 50 each set. And count stokes from mid-pool to end of 50m length which I think is a true count that doesn't include a subjective push off. My overall 1500m is about 24-25mins, but each 500 is a few seconds faster than the last. Keeping stroke count requires a lot of thought, and sometimes I let the metrics go and enjoy soaring in the water. Each are really adaptations too.
  #15  
Old 02-26-2012
louisetward louisetward is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1
louisetward
Default

Hi Terry,
I wanted to share another purposeful NTS I tried yesterday. I wanted to see how much "play" there is in one tempo. Swimming 5x100 at 1.08 I experimented with stroke length and power to see what was the maximum speed I could go without changing the tempo.
I started at 1.28 for 100 and dropped to 1.21. So 7 seconds difference without changing the tempo. Swimming consistently 1.21 will enable me to reach my goal of 1000 yards in 14 mins. The question is, what is most efficient
a) pushing hard at a slow tempo (1.08)
b) pushing less hard at a faster tempo (1.04)

~Louise
  #16  
Old 02-26-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by louisetward View Post
Hi Terry,
I wanted to share another purposeful NTS I tried yesterday. I wanted to see how much "play" there is in one tempo. Swimming 5x100 at 1.08 I experimented with stroke length and power to see what was the maximum speed I could go without changing the tempo.
I started at 1.28 for 100 and dropped to 1.21. So 7 seconds difference without changing the tempo. Swimming consistently 1.21 will enable me to reach my goal of 1000 yards in 14 mins. The question is, what is most efficient
a) pushing hard at a slow tempo (1.08)
b) pushing less hard at a faster tempo (1.04)

~Louise
Louise, congratulations, those are great times and impressive drop for a fixed tempo. As far as A vs. B that's a very individual thing. It's like riding uphill on a bicycle...some people choose lower gears and harder pushign, some people choose higher gears easier pushing. Each person has to experiment to find what is sustainable and comfortable.

Perhaps you could try some test sets of 3 x (5x100) at each tempo: 1.08, 1.06 & 1.04. Since you'll naturally have some fatigue for the final round, do it again on a different day starting at the faster tempo. Or schedule a single 1 x 500 on each of 3 separate days after similar warmup. Each day do the 500 on a different tempo and compare notes.

My general sense is that if on the 5 x 100 you descended to 1.21 that sustaining that for a 1000 is going to be very strenuous at that rate/ tempo combination, at least right now.

I'd also suggest doing some days of your 1.08 tempo @ 1.21 pace in 50s to help wire in that combo and make it feel more comfortable...your fitness will also change to accomodate this.

Try doing some sets of 10 x 50 on 1 minute with a target pace of 40 seconds at your 1.08 tempo and see how that feels.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

  #17  
Old 02-27-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by louisetward View Post
The question is, what is most efficient
a) pushing hard at a slow tempo (1.08)
b) pushing less hard at a faster tempo (1.04)

~Louise
My view is that all of us that have ambitions of above average fast times for medium to long distances should consider sustaining stroke rates of 60-70 per minute.

Its ok to race with a shorter stroke so long as the overall speed goes up and the stroke length remains consistent throughout the distance.

Focusing training on much longer strokes and slower tempos is the right preparation for this, however, a higher cadence on race day can be the smart order of the day, especially in open water.

I have been surprised how easy it was to take my SR from 1.3 to 1.1 for distances over 800m. I lose some length but you gain an easier sense of maintainable rhythm.

Try it for yourself and see.

Nice times anyway.
  #18  
Old 02-27-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: N. California
Posts: 179
swim2Bfree
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
My view is that all of us that have ambitions of above average fast times for medium to long distances should consider sustaining stroke rates of 60-70 per minute.

Its ok to race with a shorter stroke so long as the overall speed goes up and the stroke length remains consistent throughout the distance.

Focusing training on much longer strokes and slower tempos is the right preparation for this, however, a higher cadence on race day can be the smart order of the day, especially in open water.

I have been surprised how easy it was to take my SR from 1.3 to 1.1 for distances over 800m. I lose some length but you gain an easier sense of maintainable rhythm.
Careful, Andy! You're on treacherous ground here :-)
  #19  
Old 02-27-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

No i do not Think so. Its a misconception that TI encourages low stroke rate. TI encourages you to develop a long stroke and to understand the pay off between SR and SPL but Terry himself has quoted many times that he races with a sr between 0.8 and 1.0

I am just encouraging others to realize that sr of 1.0 does not take 30% more effort to sustain than 1.3

:) always
  #20  
Old 02-27-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: N. California
Posts: 179
swim2Bfree
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Focusing training on much longer strokes and slower tempos is the right preparation for this, however, a higher cadence on race day can be the smart order of the day, especially in open water.
I'm not sure it's a sound strategy to practice one thing and then expect yourself to do something else on race day. You should be practicing how you want to race. Not everything should be race-pace, but enough to train your neurons/muscles so you can access the higher tempo when you need it.

I certainly agree that a higher tempo can be beneficial in open water, but I don't think I've ever heard this stated in official TI teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
My view is that all of us that have ambitions of above average fast times for medium to long distances should consider sustaining stroke rates of 60-70 per minute.
I'm not sure it's that simple...
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.