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  #21  
Old 07-12-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I stepped slowly through your description, and from what I understand, you are saying that you can get the similar effect of arm pronation (internal rotation of the humerus on the glenoid fossa, i.e. the "joint" of the scapula)...
Oops, I said it wrong. I meant internal rotation of the humerus. Pronation, of course occurs below the elbow, and would not help to achieve a vertical or near vertical forearm, which would require the axis of the elbow "hinge" to be rotated to as close to the horizontal line (when in swimming position) as possible.
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  #22  
Old 07-14-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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This recovery drill isnt so much about the precise catch details, but making a mental picture of solidifying and stretching the low side while the upperside of the body stays flexible and loose.
This way you ride on the ramrod stright lowside and hav this as a foundation for a short while before setting up your catch, but at the same time you free up the high side of your upperbody to throw the upper shoulder forward as you throw froward a roll of rope from a boat to the shore.
With the loose uppershoulder you can also ROTATE that shoulder and upperbodypart a bit up-WHILE KEEPING THE LOW PART STRETCHED OUT AND STRAIGHT-, so its not just rotating the whole core, but the left and right body part have different tone and move differently.
This relaxing and upward roling of the high side als frees the shoulder joint itself from stress, the upper arm isnt pressed back towards the shoulderjoint so much as without this movement.
Elite swimmers take this opportunity to take the arm even higher and closer to the centerline, and shoulder very close to the head, but there is no need to this as an amateur if you are too stif. The basic idea can be copied though.

The above described be seen clearly in sec 33 to 37 in Pellegrinis relaxed stroke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXEbJKQKXw0

Her low side is a perfectly streamlined straight vessel. On that vessel she moves her shoulder and arm very loosely forward, almost independantly.
When you look at the stroke from this prespective, you see Toarmina has the same basic idea in her recovery drill stroke. A lot of elite swimmers practice this style too. Its pretty fundamental in the total setup of the rhythm of the stroke.

Try to swim this way some time exagerating the idea. It can give a big aha erlebnis moment in your swim development.

Right after the riding on the outretched edge, the outstretched edge is formed into a solid paddle at the low side, the transition gains momentum and the the loose high side is throw in the water etc etc

Hayden Wooley also has some of this idea in his stroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5OVXuHGys

And this guys above water upper body halfs action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGRT0zyQ0wY

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-16-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-14-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
This recovery drill isnt so much about the precise catch details, but making a mental picture of solidifying and stretching the low side while the upperside of the body stays flexible and loose.
This way you ride on the ramrod stright lowside and hav this as a foundation for a short while before setting up your catch, but at the same time you free up the high side of your upperbody to throw the upper shoulder forward as you throw froward a roll of rope from a boat to the shore.
Wow, Zenturtle, I've been following multiple threads and intricate descriptions of mechanics of rotation, recovery and catch setup for years, but this is the first time I've understood such a succinct description of the profound difference one should make in the tone of the low side and high side upper body quadrants.

It really makes a whole lot of sense to me the way you describe it -- I wonder why I didn't see this earlier. Or was this a sort of between the lines thing that one innately understood when doing it, so it didn't need to be explicitly stated?
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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yes shelia taormina explains it pretty well in the recovery video, "if you wanna load your core on a lengthened serape plane, you gotta have big air under there"

"what we want you to feel is your core lengthening and loading"
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  #25  
Old 07-14-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Try it mushroomfloat, I am pretty sure you will like it. Its in the statue of liberty style of swimming.
Its funny how you can watch different videos so many times but still not understand fully whats being said. Until you have done it more or less yourself you fail to understand the words. You only absorb what you already know from the words, or they just pass unnoticed.
That makes it interesting to watch the same videos a few years later.
Now you see different things again in the same videos after you discovered new things.
It still amazes me there is so little talk/video about what muscles in the core do what at what time.
There is a lot thats happening inside that translates to the style of swimming, and how the arms and legs react to the sequence of core muscles fired.

That big air under there, hmm thats more to exagerate the flying arm in the air and feel the balance of that on your low lenghtened underwater side.
Its a bit like balancing on a bike while swinging with an arm. exagerating it makes you aware of your balance and if you can hold balance with big disturbtions from the swinging arm you have improved your balance on that edge.
Next step is going from that balance to your anchor in a smooth way, and loading that catch for a moment with the weight of the recovering arm and high side of the body.
Thats also a sort of balance, but now more on your anchor point.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-14-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-15-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Try it mushroomfloat, I am pretty sure you will like it. Its in the statue of liberty style of swimming.
Its funny how you can watch different videos so many times but still not understand fully whats being said. Until you have done it more or less yourself you fail to understand the words. You only absorb what you already know from the words, or they just pass unnoticed.
That makes it interesting to watch the same videos a few years later.
Now you see different things again in the same videos after you discovered new things.
It still amazes me there is so little talk/video about what muscles in the core do what at what time.
There is a lot thats happening inside that translates to the style of swimming, and how the arms and legs react to the sequence of core muscles fired.

That big air under there, hmm thats more to exagerate the flying arm in the air and feel the balance of that on your low lenghtened underwater side.
Its a bit like balancing on a bike while swinging with an arm. exagerating it makes you aware of your balance and if you can hold balance with big disturbtions from the swinging arm you have improved your balance on that edge.
Next step is going from that balance to your anchor in a smooth way, and loading that catch for a moment with the weight of the recovering arm and high side of the body.
Thats also a sort of balance, but now more on your anchor point.
Yes i have been on it for 2 yrs now, i studied kpn & marc evans both advocate holding the V line whilst you recover
similar to what taormina is saying.
you hold the glide out whilst you recover but around shoulder height the underwater arm takes over and anchors whipping the last bit of recovery to entry

my problem has been hip timing and retardation which i am approaching fixing by making sure im riding the top edge of the hip on the same side as the entering arm and not reaching across my body (I posted in another thread)
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I think ther is also an element of highside arm held above head weighing on a fixed underwater glide line that can add momentum to the glide just by hanging up there over the front
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  #28  
Old 07-15-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Sclim, watch Shinjis recovery at 1 min 36 and compare with Pellegrini from 34 tp 37 sec.
The same fundamentals. Stable low line, loose upper shoulder/upper body half.

Shinji 1min 35- 1 min 40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORQoXa4ntqU

Pellegrini 33 to 37 sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXEbJKQKXw0

Not bad for Shinji to reach the same technical level at this subject as an olympic that started swimming at the age of 1.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-15-2018 at 05:38 AM.
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  #29  
Old 07-15-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
I think ther is also an element of highside arm held above head weighing on a fixed underwater glide line that can add momentum to the glide just by hanging up there over the front
yeah, sure. I call this `surfing the recovery weight`.
Your low outstretched shoulder to your elbow to your hand is the slow sinking surfboard.

still one of my favorites to bridge the gap between extension and getting into the catch smoothly. A must master drill for most TI swimmers on youtube (and in real live probably)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-15-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2018
rami999
 
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the replys are perfect
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