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  #71  
Old 06-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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You are fighting againt/ resisting the downward pressure from the recovery arm on the lead arm by keeping it patient till the last momemt

it feels easier when you naturally allow the weight of the recovery arm to push your lead arm down and as you rotate (slightly) towars the recovery arm entry this gives you an automatic high elbow catch.

Yes you can resist and the glide is faster (no drag from onciming water on the lead arm) but it is smoother to flow the stroke from the inside out (ie turn the arms over from the core)
you can turn arms over from core by resisiting with the lead arm
let it do what it wants
(Which is drop lower under weight of high side arm)
Roll towards the arm going down (highside) once it passes shoulder and straightens out for entry
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  #72  
Old 06-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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*you can't turn arms over from the core byresisting with the lead arm
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  #73  
Old 06-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I spear about 8:30pm and by the time the highside arm weight had affected the spear arm it is about at 7pm
then catch it taken with rotation just ahead of the shoulder (the strongest biomechnical position)
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  #74  
Old 06-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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"Extend to the elbow and not the hand"
(Ie dont lock out)
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  #75  
Old 06-12-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Well, but it's not that simple, either, because I didn't explain my conclusions fully. I have not been prioritizing fast swimming at all. I have been doing long open water sessions mostly for pure mindful enjoyment.

So I am not ready to give up on the downward drift as "slower"--my recent few pool times with drifting lead arm have shown slower pace and higher SPL to what I was doing 2 months ago, but the comparison is not all that valid--(e.g. 1:10/70m in a 35m pool compared to 1:06/75m in a 25m pool). More importantly, I have not re-measured since I went back to a patient lead arm, so it's apples and ostriches right now.

I look forward to getting back in a 25m pool and doing some side-by-side comparisons of speed and SPL. That should happen this month.

What I have found, though, is that I can keep much of the same feel to the stroke whether I let the lead arm drift or not. It has become a variable I can adjust on purpose. The one non-variable essential seems to be that the kick be timed to happen as the pressing arm passes the shoulder.
Tom, I remember the start of this discussion very well. When I first tried Terry's style (or my perception of it), I remember dropping my SPL by about 1 or 2 in a 25 yd pool, and my time stayed close to the same. Then I got sick and was out of the pool for about 2 months. Since coming back it seems to me that the same style leads to a larger SPL instead of a smaller one, although it still feels very good. I haven't been able to resolve this issue. There are, however, several tentative conclusions I am thinking about, and I am unhappy with all of them. First, my ability to understand what Terry is doing by looking at the excellent underwater film of his stroke seems to be rather limited. Second, my ability to understand what I myself am doing, or even my ability to repeat the same technique over an extended period of time, seems depressingly limited. This is not really new. We all have incredibly good days (or even weeks) that then disappear leaving us scratching our heads and wondering why.

In your case, you weren't sick but rather swimming in open water without concentrating on metrics, but some aspects of the same phenomenon may have taken place. A big puzzle to ponder...
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  #76  
Old 06-12-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Dont think in terms of arm 1 & arm 2

Think of both arms as connected through the shoulders and upperback (because they are)
What one does affects the other, they operate in unison.

"Like a little choo choo train, like a little choo choo motion"
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  #77  
Old 06-12-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Resisting this is like resisting against your natural body mechanics
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  #78  
Old 06-12-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Tom, I remember the start of this discussion very well. When I first tried Terry's style (or my perception of it), I remember dropping my SPL by about 1 or 2 in a 25 yd pool, and my time stayed close to the same. Then I got sick and was out of the pool for about 2 months. Since coming back it seems to me that the same style leads to a larger SPL instead of a smaller one, although it still feels very good. I haven't been able to resolve this issue. There are, however, several tentative conclusions I am thinking about, and I am unhappy with all of them. First, my ability to understand what Terry is doing by looking at the excellent underwater film of his stroke seems to be rather limited. Second, my ability to understand what I myself am doing, or even my ability to repeat the same technique over an extended period of time, seems depressingly limited. This is not really new. We all have incredibly good days (or even weeks) that then disappear leaving us scratching our heads and wondering why.

In your case, you weren't sick but rather swimming in open water without concentrating on metrics, but some aspects of the same phenomenon may have taken place. A big puzzle to ponder...
I'm glad you too see the puzzle in this. Your tentative conclusions are noted with interest, as is your stated limitation in the analysis of Terry's film. Over time, perhaps, with some reflection, and some further experimentation, some clarity may emerge regarding exactly what is going on with earlier catch movement, or even whether there are variations as to exactly what that movement is (rather than simply the question of when that movement of the lead hand begins).

Last edited by sclim : 06-12-2018 at 09:03 PM.
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  #79  
Old 06-13-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Either way (patient lead arm or downward drifting lead arm) feels good to me right now as long as I keep my kick timing correct. But I am learning toward a conclusion that the patient lead arm is the way to go for long distances.

The downward drift seems good for increasing stroke rate without tension or struggle.

It will be very interesting next week when I can get in a pool and try them both out with a pace clock and SPL comparison. I'll try to shoot some video as well if I can.
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  #80  
Old 06-13-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Resisting this is like resisting against your natural body mechanics
Hmm. Maybe. On the other hand, resisting rotation with a patient lead arm has started to feel like Coach Dave Cameron's advice on spearing for a high elbow catch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=tDmQiHQ8mW8
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