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Old 05-07-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Default Flip Turn Depth

Has anyone had a problem with flipping too deep? I just thought of one possible cause.

Somehow I got the idea in my head that keeping the legs straighter for longer is a good thing. However, due to my lack of flexibility, I think I can't rotate as much or as fast unless I bend my knees early. I haven't tested anything yet.

Does that sound like a good possibility? If not, what else?

I don't move that fast--20 seconds per 25 yards at the fastest--and I usually slow down when negotiating the turn. Does speed have a major affect on the flip?
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Old 05-07-2009
terry terry is offline
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Bending the legs "early" is an inexact term. Pix or video would certainly help more. I think it would help if I give more clarity on the goals of a good flip turn: To cross a distance of 7 to 10 yards (2 to 3 yards going into the turn, and 5 to 7 yards coming out of it -- depending on your height, the distance you're swimming, and what kind of kick you use on pushoff) as fast -- and as easily -- as possible.
The fast part is obvious to all. The easy part is less obvious but becomes far more compelling when you need to do 65 flip turns -- the number required when swimming the 66-length 1650-yard freestyle, which is the SCY equivalent of the 1500-meter freestyle. I've swum over 20 of those in the past 40 years. and have a vivid recall of how hard it can be to hold your pushoff to its optimal distance after you've been swimming for, say 13 of the 20+ minutes it will take to complete the distance, and your flip turn total is in the 40s already. The more your lap-and-flip total mounts the stronger becomes the urge to do just one open turn. But you don't because as a prideful distance swimmer it would be embarrassing to let people see you do that, and because it will slow you down a bit.
So, to give a short answer to your question: I leave my legs long for as long as I can. I do that because it minimizes drag as I approach the wall. That means I get into the wall faster with more speed. More speed as I hit the wall means my pushoff should be faster - meaning I'll get to resume breathing sooner.
The heading on this thread is "Flip Turn Depth." I control that, in part, by somersaulting so my heels practically brush my butt.

If lack of flexibility makes it hard to do this, fix your flexibility! That's one reason I do yoga. Not the primary reason, which is that it makes my lower back feel better all the time. But while doing a seated forward bend (paschimothanasana) - it actually has crossed my mind from time to time: "Hey I'm doing an inverted flip turn approach."
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Last edited by terry : 05-07-2009 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 05-07-2009
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Default FT depth

Two things to add to Terry's post:

1. Your turn sounds like a pike. A loose one at that, but a variable one. The moment of inertia of a body in pike is different from that of one in tuck. Good turns are closer to a tuck than a pike, and the splashiest turns are often the slowest ones. It's not how fast your feet are going when they hit the water, but how fast you turn.

2. It sounds like you might be beginning tucked, but piking mid-turn. Straightening the legs out mid-turn would slow down the turn and push you in the opposite direction of where you extend. If you're upside down and stretch the legs out, your body goes dooooowwwwwn. This is an uncomfortable moment and a common problem for new turners. Keep the tuck all the way through to foor placement.
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Old 05-08-2009
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Excellent, excellent. Two great responses. OK, if we use the forward bend as an example, I had been trying to do that in the water. That's what I meant by keeping my legs straight for as long as I could. Basically, once I couldn't bend forward any more, I would bend at the knees. But, due to lack of flexibility, I think I was forming more of a "L" shape than a "V" or a ball. So I guess I was beginning a dive in effect.

Today I tried to go into the turn with more speed, starting from just beyond the flags. I focussed on bending my knees earlier in the turn. It seemed to help a little. And maybe I need to draw my knees up closer to my chest? I did try to roll further to the point of facing the wall. But, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing really.

I think some speed helps keep water out of the nose which is always a good thing.

(I read something that Janet Evens wrote. She said she doesn't remember the process of developing the flip because she learned at age 4! So I'm a few decades late. haha At least my brain will benefit more from the challenge as opposed to her perfect repetition.)
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Old 05-08-2009
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Default My Flipturn sequence

I use the same sequence for teaching turns on both my youth and masters teams. Works like a charm.

1. standing tuck flip- jump up and drive down and around into a single flip. Kids do this all the time at the pool in the summer. If you stand up facing where you started, you're doing fine and can move on. If not, stay at this one and focus on rotating only in one direction, keeping a ticght tuck, keeping the head and core driving the flip.

2. Swim a few strokes into an imaginary wall. Drop one arm to the side and keep it ther <gasp- not front quadrant!!!> and when the next arm gets back, drive right down and around into a half flip, ending up on your back. The arms are levers, not pulling devices. It's mostly core but the arms are there as leverage and keeping them where they start allows them to close to a streamline afterwards.

3. Swim in and do that flip on the wall. Don't push off- just try to find a placement where you are horizontal underwater with your feet on the wall.

4. Swim in and try the flip into a push-off, but go into backstroke. A good flip turn is only in one direction- leave the wall on your back and glide, glide, glide. Don't push off to go up or down, just horizontal from where you place.

5. Swim in, flip into push-off, and then do a gradual roll in the 4-7 yards of your glide. Go right into skate/first stroke without pausing an arm at the side.
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Old 05-08-2009
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Thanks Coach Dave,
That's just how I did it! and still working on it as my practice gets more and more 'involved'. I'm proud to say that I now practice 100% with the flip turn no matter the distance.
Points #3-4 were important steps to acclimatize to and point #5 easier to grasp as I was learning backstroke at the time and always began by pushing off into face down streamline then slowly turning to nose up. So, when doing the flip and facing up (initially), pushing off and doing the reverse of this was 'easy'.
Breathing patterns and knowing your spl(s) also play a dynamic role in making this successful when you begin to incorporate into your practices.

Alan
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Old 05-09-2009
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Default Tuck and Pike

My flip turns have been not quite right and I have been searching for the answer. When coach Dave used the terms Tuck and Pike my mind went to my school days (over 60 years ago) and those were the terms used when attempting gymnastics and diving. What they illuminated for me was that on my flip turns I was not tucking enough and more in a pike position. In practice today I focused on doing a really quick tight tuck and each length came in a second faster.
Just goes to show that you never know what can trigger an aha moment. I owe you Dave. :o)
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Old 05-09-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Just goes to show that you never know what can trigger an aha moment. I owe you Dave. :o)
Hey, what about me and my problems?! haha I got Dave any everyone else to speak. hehe

Is bending the legs part of the tuck, or is it more about curling the upper body more? I'm guessing both. I've been trying to delay bending my legs, then whip them over. Piking I suppose.
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Old 05-09-2009
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Careful with the lower back Shu-man. Any abrupt "whipping" may cause discomfort.
Here's an exercise (dryland). Standing, facing forward and hands at your sides, tuck your chin slowly while sliding your hands down your thighs as to touch your toes. Stop when your hands are on your knees. Slowly return to standing, uncurl chin, face forward.
Do this very slowly at first then gradually make this movement quicker BUT smoothly. No abrupt movements or bending lest you hurt yourself.
Perhaps take this feeling to the pool. If you concentrate on lying on the water it will help. The motion of 'touching toes' will probably be enough to bring your legs around. By the time your hands reach your knees you'll see your feet leave the water and your arms will be positioned to move into streamline. Done smoothly should place you horizontally, flat on your back at first.
Much luck and of course follow Coach Dave's points.
See ya around : )

Alan
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Old 05-09-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP View Post
Here's an exercise (dryland). Standing, facing forward and hands at your sides, tuck your chin slowly while sliding your hands down your thighs as to touch your toes. Stop when your hands are on your knees. Slowly return to standing, uncurl chin, face forward.
Sounds good. Will try. And like Terry said, working on flexibility is a good idear.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do a maneuver for my back that is like a tight tuck. Lying flat on the floor, I draw my knees to my chest and basically do a crunch. Then I rock back and forth as my spine cracks and pops.
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