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  #31  
Old 01-05-2018
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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I believe one of the many reasons for learning a decent 6bk before eventually choosing to swim with a 2bk most of the time (not all time anyway) is to get the kick timing right.

When you have to fit 6 kicks in the stroke cycle, you have less room for missing the timing on each kick. With 2bk you have more. With 2bk + slowish stroke rate you have all day to miss the timing and maybe introducing a bad overbending knee kick start.

Mastering a 6bk is mastering rhyrhm, it's like having a metronome in your mind. From there you can seamlessly switch to a 4bk, 2bk or even 1bk at will.

Salvo
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  #32  
Old 01-05-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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But the 6 beat metronome can be untimely as well as the two beat metronome.
If the whole cycle is delayed or premature it's rhythmic but non the less wrong. Perhaps it's not visible clearly but I doubt that a six beat kick always has the correct timing. Also a 6 beat kick can be a quarter or a half kick cycle out of time and then the kick also can happen with the beginning of the arm stroke and not with the spearing.

Best regards

Inge
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2018
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Of course you can go wrong with a 6bk as well. However, comparing with a 2bk there's less room for error because you have to fit more kicks in the same amount of time. Yes, with a 6bk you could still delay or anticipate the whole cycle and it would be rhythmic but out of synch. But with a 2bk and a relatively slow stroke rate you have pauses beetween kicks and these pauses increase the chances to introduce timing flaws (and jerky movements). And I find this is more likely to happen among beginners who refuse to learn a 6bk and go straight to 100% 2bk swimming. I believe that in the learning process the 6bk has its place for this and many other reasons.

Another fun way to get the timing right with a 2bk is to swim at high stroke rates. At 80SPM+ the pauses beetween kicks are reduced enough to let the kick hit the right timing. The kick action gets continuous, rhythmical and not rushed (for a 2bk it's a comfortable rate, more or less the same rate people walk at).

Salvo
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  #34  
Old 01-05-2018
IngeA IngeA is offline
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I also think it's easier to get a good rhythm with a 6-beat kick than with a two beat kick. The 6 beat kick stabilises the body. Or, better to say: it corrects the result of the lack of core stability. With a two beat kick your core has to be stable otherwise your feet tend to do balancing movements that can disturb the rhythm.
But I don't think a 6 beat kick leads to a better timing.

But I must admit that I'm not an expert at all.

I only swam with a 6 beat kick for a few weeks before I detected TI. And I also had the wrong timing in the 2 beat kick but I never had problems with the core stability. From the beginning I was able to swim freestyle without any kick at all. So I never had problems with stabilising movements of the legs and I never had problems with the rhythm. Not with 6 beat kick and not with 2 beat kick. Nonetheless the timing was wrong.

Best regards

Inge
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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The 2, 4, 6bk are not mutually exclusive, the rotational kick is in each pattern if it's a true 2, 4, or 6bk. I've mostly moved away from calling it a 2bk since it's really a rotational kick - and prefer to call it just that, a rotational kick. This provides a good visual to swimmers of what correct kick timing is regardless of 2, 4, 6bk patterns.

The 2bk is a single kick down per rotation; as seen in previous videos, swimmer kicks down right leg rotates her to the left edge, left kick down rotates to right edge. 2bk is 2 kicks per stroke cycle. 6bk, same rotational kick as 2bk, but added two stabilizing kicks per edge or 3 kicks per edge or stroke (6 kicks per stroke cycle), i.e. left kick (down) to rotate to right edge (1), then kick down right (2), kick down left (3). This positions the right leg correctly as a rotational kick (down) to rotate body to opposite or left edge. This blog goes into more detail of kicking patterns: http://www.usms.org/articles/article...y.php?aid=3061

Learning the kick timing swimmer should not be aware of the counts or patterns (2,4,6bk) as it only adds confusion and need to control. Only feel the kick centering/starting with rotation of the pelvis. Allow the kick timing to happen *naturally* with the rotational connection.

A good way establish (really wake up) this rotational connection is in torpedo drill with gentle flutter. In drill the swimmer will start to notice each (downward) kick rocks the body (hips and shoulders) left and right, i.e. right kick down, rocks the boat to left edge, left kick - right edge. This is not complete rotation like in freestyle, just rocking the boat connecting the legs. This serves two purposes: 1. promotes kick from pelvis (not the knees), and 2. creates the connection to a rotational-timed kick naturally. After drilling in torpedo and rocking the boat - swim freestyle with the focus on gentle flutter kick (don't think about kick timing at all). The rotational kick will happen naturally with added stabilizing kicks - which is the 6bk (or the waltz) described previously. The added stabilizing kicks can be disengaged later as balance improves.

Always fun to watch two elite swimmers as in previous video. One swimmer 2bk, one swimmer 6bk, both swimmers stroking at the same tempo or turnover - both swimming at the same speed. Should you do a 2bk, 4bk, or 6bk? It's a personal choice for each swimmer.

Stuart
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Should you do a 2bk, 4bk, or 6bk? It's a personal choice for each swimmer.
Stuart
I see the advantage of being familiar with both (or even all 3 styles) to be able to switch when the situation demands it. But is it not true that for distance swimming nothing beats the economy/efficiency of a well-controlled 2 beat kick on a balanced core?
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  #37  
Old 01-05-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I see the advantage of being familiar with both (or even all 3 styles) to be able to switch when the situation demands it. But is it not true that for distance swimming nothing beats the economy/efficiency of a well-controlled 2 beat kick on a balanced core?
Yup, a swimmer should eventually be able to switch between 2 & 6bk (and eventually 4bk too) at will. But most learning or understanding rotational kick for the first time will usually have 6bk or flutter kick timed with rotational kick - which is just fine. A timed "rotational" flutter kick means you are swimming with whole body coordination from the core - which after all, is the goal - kicking count is more consequential.

Long distance swimmers typically default to 2bk. My default is 2bk (short or long dist), but move to 4bk in really bumpy conditions on my breathing edge; 6bk when I'm cold or need to get some blood in the legs to run up the beach at the swim finish. That's personal to me, but may not be a personal choice of another swimmer.

Stuart
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  #38  
Old 01-06-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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After a couple of more sessions focused on 2BK timing, I've decided that this later kick timing is the one I want to pursue. I'm attempting to time the finish of the kick with the moment of full extension of the spear on the opposite side. At the same time, I am trying (and often succeeding) to mentally synch the kick with the pressing motion of the same-side arm--that seems to be the stronger connection right now, though the spearing arm is useful for making the timing of the kick more precise.

It's definitely an intentional practice for me to withhold the kick until that late in the stroke cycle. The effect seems to be that I am remaining on my side until later in the stroke, and the rotation happens later and more suddenly. In practice this is revealing some wobbles and side-to-side balance issues as I work toward maintaining stability and the motionless "flick and hold" skill.

Concentrating on this kick timing, yesterday I swam 10 x 50y (not my usual 50m pool) at :36-37 and 14 SPL, right at the lowest end of my 25y green zone. When I slowed down my pace for some 20 x 25y repeats, I was consistently hitting 11-12 SPL. It'll be interesting to see if any speed gains come as I work back up to my normal USRPT stroke count of 16 for 25m.

Funny, my "discovery" of kick timing is exactly what TI has been demonstrating and teaching all along, but I had always been kicking earlier until I watched the Freestyle Mastery videos so closely.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 01-06-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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  #39  
Old 01-06-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
After a couple of more sessions focused on 2BK timing, I've decided that this later kick timing is the one I want to pursue. I'm attempting to time the finish of the kick with the moment of full extension of the spear on the opposite side. At the same time, I am trying (and often succeeding) to mentally synch the kick with the pressing motion of the same-side arm--that seems to be the stronger connection right now, though the spearing arm is useful for making the timing of the kick more precise.

It's definitely an intentional practice for me to withhold the kick until that late in the stroke cycle. The effect seems to be that I am remaining on my side until later in the stroke, and the rotation happens later and more suddenly. In practice this is revealing some wobbles and side-to-side balance issues as I work toward maintaining stability and the motionless "flick and hold" skill.

Concentrating on this kick timing, yesterday I swam 10 x 50y (not my usual 50m pool) at :36-37 and 14 SPL, right at the lowest end of my 25y green zone. When I slowed down my pace for some 20 x 25y repeats, I was consistently hitting 11-12 SPL. It'll be interesting to see if any speed gains come as I work back up to my normal USRPT stroke count of 16 for 25m.

Funny, my "discovery" of kick timing is exactly what TI has been demonstrating and teaching all along, but I had always been kicking earlier until I watched the Freestyle Mastery videos so closely.
Tom, what you wrote above reflects pretty well my experience trying to implement this. More time on the side, a compressed rotation, which requires some more core strength, but when done right a longer DPS. So far I have only gotten down to the pool once to practice this. It has been so damn cold here that they closed school and with it the pool. Do you live in Michigan (southeast)? If so, it would be great sometime to meet you and swim.
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  #40  
Old 01-06-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
After a couple of more sessions focused on 2BK timing, I've decided that this later kick timing is the one I want to pursue. I'm attempting to time the finish of the kick with the moment of full extension of the spear on the opposite side. At the same time, I am trying (and often succeeding) to mentally synch the kick with the pressing motion of the same-side arm--that seems to be the stronger connection right now, though the spearing arm is useful for making the timing of the kick more precise.

It's definitely an intentional practice for me to withhold the kick until that late in the stroke cycle. The effect seems to be that I am remaining on my side until later in the stroke, and the rotation happens later and more suddenly. In practice this is revealing some wobbles and side-to-side balance issues as I work toward maintaining stability and the motionless "flick and hold" skill.

Concentrating on this kick timing, yesterday I swam 10 x 50y (not my usual 50m pool) at :36-37 and 14 SPL, right at the lowest end of my 25y green zone. When I slowed down my pace for some 20 x 25y repeats, I was consistently hitting 11-12 SPL. It'll be interesting to see if any speed gains come as I work back up to my normal USRPT stroke count of 16 for 25m.

Funny, my "discovery" of kick timing is exactly what TI has been demonstrating and teaching all along, but I had always been kicking earlier until I watched the Freestyle Mastery videos so closely.
This would make the physics and math make more self-consistent sense. As you point out in your last paragraph they were showing this all along in the teaching videos, but unless one was paying close attention it was easy to miss this variation in synchronization. Once you're actually doing it yourself, though, especially if you used to do it the other way it's easy to "feel" the difference and to understand how it's done. I'm gradually getting it myself, though at my own SPL range, and it indeed seems more efficient.
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