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  #21  
Old 07-27-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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if you go real mental with the hook into the water you'll morph into shoulder driven and then body driven.

Sorry for all the posts have no edit function
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  #22  
Old 07-27-2018
borate borate is offline
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Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Sorry for all the posts have no edit function


Bottom-right of your message.
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  #23  
Old 07-28-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I can understand those clips, but havent heard talking about snapping hips.
I more like the the explanation where hips drive, shoulder roll builds on top of that, arm throw build on those shoulder movement again.
Thats a functional building kinetic chain. Like a boxers punch, golf swing, spear throw etc.
Snapping hips are just that, snapping hips.

What Sheila says about big air under the recovering arm and what Bill Kirby does is almost identical dont you think?

Seems like the days of the lively forums are numbered. Even here there is not much going on anymore.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-28-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I can understand those clips, but havent heard talking about snapping hips.
I more like the the explanation where hips drive, shoulder roll builds on top of that, arm throw build on those shoulder movement again.
Thats a functional building kinetic chain. Like a boxers punch, golf swing, spear throw etc.
Snapping hips are just that, snapping hips.

What Sheila says about big air under the recovering arm and what Bill Kirby does is almost identical dont you think?

Seems like the days of the lively forums are numbered. Even here there is not much going on anymore.
Yes, i think you need enough height to load the core, across the surface probably isnt going to get that lengthening / connection.

I had another go this morning, i found going wider really helped with stability, i was so "on top" of the water that i was actually getting jostled about.

Right arm was picking up over hip at exit causing left leg foot to come out of the water requiring a correction, so i sorted that by swinging out wider too, instantly corrected that pesky foot.
Gotta thank streak & coach dougal for that one.
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  #25  
Old 07-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Head position as well, eyes up catch makes huge difference

https://youtu.be/Nv6qDqKPd_M

I hate facedown now, you can feel the drag off the top of the head.
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  #26  
Old 07-30-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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So, what are we talking about?
Well, the weight of half a head, shoulder and arm hover above the water,.... and the next time when you watch they are gone.
All the weight has sunk in the water.
Where has all the potential energy gone? A big water displacement almost perpendicular to the forward movement. Every stroke. What a waiste of energy.

load ti a
upload image

load ti b


load ti c
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  #27  
Old 07-30-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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mushroomfloat will find thsi interesting I guess



If I had to pick one word to describe my stroke -- if I had to name one ingredient that pulls everything together -- it would be: connection.

When most people watch me swim, they notice that I’m galloping or loping... or they notice that my hands are open during the pull. Those things are incidental. What they should really notice, and what I want you to watch in this clip, is how I’m connecting my catch... to my core.

That’s the connection I’m talking about -- linking the hip area (the core) to the hand, and feeling them work together as opposed to working separately. It means swimming with your entire body, as opposed to swimming with just your arms or just your legs.

A lot of the connection happens on that one side -- the left side -- where I’m setting up and getting ready for that huge pull.

As I set up for the catch, I think about moving the rest of my body with my arm. This generates way more power than if you get halfway through the pull and then turn the hips.

By connecting the core to the catch, you get the maximum power you can get by using the whole body.

When I take that pull and move my hips along with the pull, I maximize the power. I feel the whole body moving together as one unit as opposed to separate units.
It’s all about connecting.

Here’s another angle where you can see how I set the two things up -- the hand and the hips -- and then connect them to get maximum power from my stroke. When I get the timing just right, my stroke feels fast and light and almost effortless.

In the next few clips, I want you to focus just on my hands and forearms. Notice that when I initiate the catch, my arm is extended and my hand is up near the surface.

I try to start the catch just a few inches under the water because that gives me plenty of time to set up my pulling surface and get some momentum going before that pulling surface hits the true power zone, which is the middle third of the pull.

Many swimmers don’t initiate the catch until the hand is halfway through the pull. They let the hand drift downward or they plunge it downward, and don’t start the catch until it’s too late, and they never fully connect the hips to the hand.

When my hand enters the water, I concentrate on catching with as much surface area as possible -- from the hand and fingertips all the way down to the elbow.

It’s another form of connection. I’m trying to connect that entire arm -- and really that entire side of my body -- with the water. I’m trying to engage everything from fingertips to wrist to forearm to the lats and then to the hips and core. I’m using the catch to set up my whole body and not just my hand.

Another big thing to notice is the elbow. I try to keep my elbow high and make sure I’m not slipping or dropping the elbow on the top part of the stroke. This sets up your pulling surface, and lets you gain momentum before you get to the power part of the stroke.

When I teach clinics, I see a lot of swimmers who drop their elbow at the beginning part of the stroke. They slip through the water and it’s not till the second part of the stroke that they get started. So they’re starting from nothing to get their power, as opposed to having some momentum building into the power phase.

By catching near the surface and by keeping the elbow high, I have more time to set up a connection between the hand the the hip... between the catch and the core.

One other thing you’ll notice about my pull is that I don’t push all the way through. The hand exits a little bit early compared to most people.

I’ve experimented with this and it’s just something that feels more comfortable and more productive to me. If I catch near the surface and get good acceleration into the middle part of the pull, I can exit a little sooner and get into the next stroke.

One of my favorite drills for working on the connection between the catch and the core is the Underwater Recovery Drill.

I normally don’t look forward when I swim, but for this drill, you do look forward so you can actually see where you’re catching the water and what your elbow is doing at the catch. You can make sure you’re doing the right thing.

Try to catch nice and high, near the surface. Keep the elbow high all the way through the pull. And try to connect the rotation of your hips with the catch and the start of the pull.

When you finish the pull, keep your arm in the water and send it back out front. This is not doggie paddle! It takes focus and concentration to make the link between your body and your pull.

Another good drill for working on connection is Single-Arm Freestyle, with one arm extended and the other arm at your side.

Most swimmers, when they swim with just one arm, want to use that arm and muscle it and not use the rest of their body. So try to connect and use everything all together.

It’s very difficult to do this with just one arm, but if you can connect while doing the drill, it will be a piece of cake to connect when you’re swimming.

Learning how to swim with your whole body is so important that I’m going to show another good drill, which is swimming with your fists. I do a lot of this.

Simply close your fists and swim. Don’t hit the water with the first and drive it down. Keep your fist near the surface, keep your elbow high, and initiate the catch with your forearm.

Connect with as much surface area as possible and then connect your pulling surface to your core body. This drill may feel awkward at first, but it will help program your muscles...

...to swim like this -- connecting the catch to the core for maximum power.


by.... Jason Lezak

He lopes on his left because that feels like his strongest side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=chwxaUtnfUk

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-30-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-31-2018
Oyoguneko
 
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Itís funny to see the underwater view it seems like the swimmer is throwing a ball , look at it to get the impulsion the kick of his body . Thank you for your insight and photo analyze I will try it right away ! As I need to improve the movement of my whole body to move forward.
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
mushroomfloat will find thsi interesting I guess



If I had to pick one word to describe my stroke -- if I had to name one ingredient that pulls everything together -- it would be: connection.

When most people watch me swim, they notice that Iím galloping or loping... or they notice that my hands are open during the pull. Those things are incidental. What they should really notice, and what I want you to watch in this clip, is how Iím connecting my catch... to my core.

Thatís the connection Iím talking about -- linking the hip area (the core) to the hand, and feeling them work together as opposed to working separately. It means swimming with your entire body, as opposed to swimming with just your arms or just your legs.

A lot of the connection happens on that one side -- the left side -- where Iím setting up and getting ready for that huge pull.

As I set up for the catch, I think about moving the rest of my body with my arm. This generates way more power than if you get halfway through the pull and then turn the hips.

By connecting the core to the catch, you get the maximum power you can get by using the whole body.

When I take that pull and move my hips along with the pull, I maximize the power. I feel the whole body moving together as one unit as opposed to separate units.
Itís all about connecting.

Hereís another angle where you can see how I set the two things up -- the hand and the hips -- and then connect them to get maximum power from my stroke. When I get the timing just right, my stroke feels fast and light and almost effortless.

In the next few clips, I want you to focus just on my hands and forearms. Notice that when I initiate the catch, my arm is extended and my hand is up near the surface.

I try to start the catch just a few inches under the water because that gives me plenty of time to set up my pulling surface and get some momentum going before that pulling surface hits the true power zone, which is the middle third of the pull.

Many swimmers donít initiate the catch until the hand is halfway through the pull. They let the hand drift downward or they plunge it downward, and donít start the catch until itís too late, and they never fully connect the hips to the hand.

When my hand enters the water, I concentrate on catching with as much surface area as possible -- from the hand and fingertips all the way down to the elbow.

Itís another form of connection. Iím trying to connect that entire arm -- and really that entire side of my body -- with the water. Iím trying to engage everything from fingertips to wrist to forearm to the lats and then to the hips and core. Iím using the catch to set up my whole body and not just my hand.

Another big thing to notice is the elbow. I try to keep my elbow high and make sure Iím not slipping or dropping the elbow on the top part of the stroke. This sets up your pulling surface, and lets you gain momentum before you get to the power part of the stroke.

When I teach clinics, I see a lot of swimmers who drop their elbow at the beginning part of the stroke. They slip through the water and itís not till the second part of the stroke that they get started. So theyíre starting from nothing to get their power, as opposed to having some momentum building into the power phase.

By catching near the surface and by keeping the elbow high, I have more time to set up a connection between the hand the the hip... between the catch and the core.

One other thing youíll notice about my pull is that I donít push all the way through. The hand exits a little bit early compared to most people.

Iíve experimented with this and itís just something that feels more comfortable and more productive to me. If I catch near the surface and get good acceleration into the middle part of the pull, I can exit a little sooner and get into the next stroke.

One of my favorite drills for working on the connection between the catch and the core is the Underwater Recovery Drill.

I normally donít look forward when I swim, but for this drill, you do look forward so you can actually see where youíre catching the water and what your elbow is doing at the catch. You can make sure youíre doing the right thing.

Try to catch nice and high, near the surface. Keep the elbow high all the way through the pull. And try to connect the rotation of your hips with the catch and the start of the pull.

When you finish the pull, keep your arm in the water and send it back out front. This is not doggie paddle! It takes focus and concentration to make the link between your body and your pull.

Another good drill for working on connection is Single-Arm Freestyle, with one arm extended and the other arm at your side.

Most swimmers, when they swim with just one arm, want to use that arm and muscle it and not use the rest of their body. So try to connect and use everything all together.

Itís very difficult to do this with just one arm, but if you can connect while doing the drill, it will be a piece of cake to connect when youíre swimming.

Learning how to swim with your whole body is so important that Iím going to show another good drill, which is swimming with your fists. I do a lot of this.

Simply close your fists and swim. Donít hit the water with the first and drive it down. Keep your fist near the surface, keep your elbow high, and initiate the catch with your forearm.

Connect with as much surface area as possible and then connect your pulling surface to your core body. This drill may feel awkward at first, but it will help program your muscles...

...to swim like this -- connecting the catch to the core for maximum power.


by.... Jason Lezak

He lopes on his left because that feels like his strongest side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=chwxaUtnfUk
Good read thanks,
yes that is how i'm seeing it too, i use the highside hip to start a subtle nudge down which locks the catch / starts a grab on the water, then that actually finishes off my recovery to entry

i get a nice twack as elbow and armpit enter the water
(if you do martial arts or boxing you'll know that a powerful stamp or punch noise comes from
the hip movement, if you try to stamp on the floor it'll be weak but if you lead the stamp with the hip it will be "Boom")

one thing to watch though is closing down the angle of the high side arm before entry too much
that's why i found that the highside hip initiating the grab on the water also finishes off the second half of the recovery.

As sheila says, just go nice and slowly to feel the core lengthening & loading forward.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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this is how the sinking swimmer looks underwater.

weight above low arm
picture hosting


Arm has landed in the water. (so wide, that it causes drag by the way)
photo hosting

Totally under water, arm starts to pull, elbow starts to drop


At full anchor, partly dropped elbow
fotos delen

This guy is strong and a pretty good swimmer, but you can see the tendency of a dropped elbow is there. in his case he is holding everything still reasonably together.
Beginning swimmers wont be able to hold the elbow up if they want to swim faster than very relaxed with this timing.
And where has the potential energy gone? I dont know.

Swimming with this timing and lack of paddle setup is missing efficiency in 4 manners:

1 Not transferring weight into propulsion
2 Not setting up an optimal propulsive maximal drag shape for anchoring properly, therefore creating extra slippage of water around the anchor.
3 Not setting up a proper time envelope for increasing the pressure on the anchor. Optimal traction is generated when the pressure is build up gradually toward the maximal leverage point and held or increased from there on.
4 Increase of velocity variation during the cycle, which leads to extra energy expenditure compared to swimming with constant forward velocity.

The posiible positive influence is that the body is slightly longer in a long streamlined shape, but as can be seen, the difference with Kirby is very minimal.
Even though the timing and setup differences are subtle, seen from the outside, the resulting effect on the total stroke is quite significant. This transition at the front influences the whole following underwater phase of the low side, and that has also an effect how your core and the rest of the body reacts on this different force on the underwater side.
A differnt anchor on the low side also effects the effectiveness of the possible forward throwing action of the high side,
because this forward throwing also finds a partial foundation in the low side anchor.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-01-2018 at 07:42 AM.
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