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  #1  
Old 07-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Zenturtle
Default Weight on catch in a long stroke

I was watching some doggy paddle drills, when I came across Bill Kirby doing doggy paddle in a slightly mediocre way. He didnt seem to like the drill very much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUhEK0YOG_8 (dont listen to the swimsmooth bala bla ha ha)
When he switched over to his normal stroke it became obvious why.
This guy seems to like slicing through the water with his upperbody and using his above water weight to load his catch after reaching,stretching out and setting up, to let that weight transfer into a release of the spring from his anchor into his streamline again. This cycle repeats itself, and this mechanism isnt available in doggy paddle, where its more local shoulder arm action and a lot of drag all the time.
When he switches to normal stroke he exagerates the throwing the weight over the body to get into the groove again and find his rotational balance of the weight swinging above the narrow underwater torpedo. Finding the balance point where the torpedo roll to the left or the right, and how to set up his underwaterarm to move from torpedo into catch, using that weight transfer in the most optimal way.


finding his balance line:
photo sharing


loading catch on the left side:


and loading catch on right side:
sfbeeldingen

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-25-2018 at 10:39 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
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So, how does that look underwater at the different stages of the cycle?

1 reach and setup a slight start of the catch. (same side leg is also setup)



2 start weight on catch. Above water arm is almost at shoulder height moving forward, or about at shoulder height, depending the level of catchup timing. recovering shoulder is rotated up, while the low arm has to stay outsinde the centerline with an upward rotated elbow. this together requires the shoulderblades to be pressed together.
afbeedlingen

3 peak weight on catch.
At this point the mass center of the weight above water is more or less at he same level as the catching arm, so the weight is pessing maximal into the catch. To use that weight effectively in a long stroke its best to have the paddle pointing down at a reasonable angle, otherwise the weight cant be transfered to backward pressure. Low side paddle and high side weight are working at different sides of the body, so together they create a torque that also rotates the body around its axis.
To execute this cycle optimally, you need enough flexibility and shoulder strength/stabilisation.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-25-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
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4
After the peak weight on catch you are very near to the full lock position, where there is a transition to releasing the spring and starting to use your full body to reach peak power in the stroke. The weight is over the top and you are agian getting more totally under the water.
afbeelding


5
Full lock and switch.
High side arm under water, low side arm fully locked in the water. Right in the switch from left to right side.
photo upload

6
Shove forward with torpedo lowside from anchor point.
plaatjes afbeeldingen

7
Extend and finish. Streamline further into the fastest part of the stroke and setup to repeat the cycle at the other side.
upload image

Well, thats my perception of the phases, for what I am able to feel them with my just above avarage ability to copy these actions.
TI wants to keep everything more wide, and thats whats perhaps best for less skilled, weaker and stiffer people, to avoid shoulder or balance problems. You still can get the basic idea I guess if you have reasonable swim skills.

So how does this look from the outside, when this guy swims at a relaxed pace?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FKaasvXjI0
How relaxed are those recovering arms. It looks so relaxed, but underwater there is a lot going on in the meantime.
In this clip he is swimming very much catchup timing, with only a little weight on catch. His high arm has nearly landed when he starts his catch. Only using the endmomentum of sinking the high side into the low side on his anchor.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-25-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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  #4  
Old 07-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
So, how does that look underwater at the different stages of the cycle?

1 reach and setup a slight start of the catch. (same side leg is also setup)



2 start weight on catch. Above water arm is almost at shoulder height moving forward, or about at shoulder height, depending the level of catchup timing. recovering shoulder is rotated up, while the low arm has to stay outsinde the centerline with an upward rotated elbow. this together requires the shoulderblades to be pressed together.
afbeedlingen

3 peak weight on catch.
At this point the mass center of the weight above water is more or less at he same level as the catching arm, so the weight is pessing maximal into the catch. To use that weight effectively in a long stroke its best to have the paddle pointing down at a reasonable angle, otherwise the weight cant be transfered to backward pressure. Low side paddle and high side weight are working at different sides of the body, so together they create a torque that also rotates the body around its axis.
To execute this cycle optimally, you need enough flexibility and shoulder strength/stabilisation.
This is where i'm at too, exactly this stroke!

I think the lead arm needs to go down to allow the highside shoulder to elevate, it is almost like a kayak principle.

It's funny i was going to start a similar thread this morning about this very subject!
Great pics and analysis ZT

Lead arm like a "slowly sinking surfboard" i think you said the other day? thats it, i find it goes wide and down
also i wemt from straight arm recovery to chambering it above the head (like sailboat drill) and then strongly fired the high side hip
i got a massive fast shallow gilde off of that & got a good rythmn going like sheila taorminas stroke, something to try
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  #5  
Old 07-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I was controlling this from the hips
I found a small nudge down of the highside hip on the way to entry locks the catch underwater

Also i drove the hips towards the far end of the pool not just rotated them, actually rotated and drove forward, this seemed to work the 2bk naturally
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  #6  
Old 07-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Just been up the pool for an hour working on this,

There is a big element of float & paddle to the stroke

and its much more powerful with an early highside hip rotation to lock the catch onto the water got it very snappy with a powerful hook.

i also tried the aim down your pinkie tip which sharpened the stroke up immensely removed all slop
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  #7  
Old 07-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I got the turn to air seemlessly intergrated and very smooth it doesnt require a fast snap back down of the face it can return smoothly in time with the rythmn of the stroke.

Breathe on full extention but start head turn as spear pierces the water with a slow turn of the head to air and a slow roll back
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
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Well, you got it all under control than.
Personally, swimming is still like holding 10 spinning plates in the air. There are always some plates about to fall or falling while you speed up plates somewhere else.
Its damn hard to keep them all spinning at top speed all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROvIjfZoZg

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-26-2018 at 07:09 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Well, you got it all under control than.
Personally, swimming is still like holding 10 spinning plates in the air. There are always some plates about to fall or falling while you speed up plates somewhere else.
Its damn hard to keep them all spinning at top speed all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROvIjfZoZg
Yes last nights swim was the best technique i've ever achieved in 3 years + of practice.

I just went slow and it all came together, i had time in the stroke to figure out the early highside hip nudge down to lock the anchor, also matched highside arm to low side anchor timing, then i could get a faster ratchet switch going.

"Train slow with correct technique and that slow will become very fast"
very apt.
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Hip driven from the raceclub:

https://youtu.be/e02oju0S4uE

The guy says the elbow actually drops a little bit on the extention prior to a slide out,
Thats what i noticed too in practice
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