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  #1  
Old 01-31-2017
ScoopUK
 
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Default Butterfly with breaststroke kick

Hi,

I have a hard time in swimming with any movement that requires undulations like your textbook body dolphin for butterfly. I get by with my dolphin kicks underwater by having quite a powerful action from the hips down but it does mean I need to setup the kick by raising my ankles to my butt quite a lot which presumably causes drag. As a result I tend to swim butterfly and breaststroke very flat with a low stroke rate. I glide quite a lot in butterfly with my leg kicks giving me a decent amount of propulsion.

I was wondering what people thought about utilising a breaststroke kick instead and if that would compliment me better. As I understand it butterfly originated from breaststroke anyway so it's not totally weird. Whether it's legal in UK masters competition I don't know, I will have to read up.

Anyone else doing this or has done so in the past? I really like the sensation of swimming butterfly and actually it's on par with my freestyle pace albeit at a far greater energy cost. I couldn't comprehend swimming long distance butterfly right now, maybe this could be a way to do so?
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2017
ScoopUK
 
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Well at least I have found it to be legal in masters competition which is good:

Quote:
504. In events confined to Masters swimmers:
504.1 when using the forward start the referee’s whistle shall indicate that the swimmers
may take their positions with at least one foot at the front of the starting platform or pool deck or in the water holding the rail or side of the pool or other starting place with
one or both hands;
504.2 in a backstroke race, prior to the starting signal, swimmers shall line up in the water
facing the starting end, holding the rail or side of the pool or other starting place with
one or both hands;
504.3 a breaststroke kicking movement is permitted for butterfly.
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2017
liolio
 
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With regard to dolphin kick, whole body dolphin, etc.
If you can physically do it but you can't find the right feel, try to think of your shoulders line.

People say "generate pressure with your torso" and getting the feel of that ain't that easy whereas moving the shoulder line is easier.
If you move your shoulder toward you back it flattens you back, and forward (closer to nipples to make it clear) it flattens you belly (torso).
There is clearly something about profiling but moving the shoulders also drive the subtle back movement.

Other than that I read the same thing as you did about butterfrog it is legal.
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  #4  
Old 02-01-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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CoachBobM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopUK View Post
Hi,

I have a hard time in swimming with any movement that requires undulations like your textbook body dolphin for butterfly. I get by with my dolphin kicks underwater by having quite a powerful action from the hips down but it does mean I need to setup the kick by raising my ankles to my butt quite a lot which presumably causes drag. As a result I tend to swim butterfly and breaststroke very flat with a low stroke rate. I glide quite a lot in butterfly with my leg kicks giving me a decent amount of propulsion.

I was wondering what people thought about utilising a breaststroke kick instead and if that would compliment me better. As I understand it butterfly originated from breaststroke anyway so it's not totally weird. Whether it's legal in UK masters competition I don't know, I will have to read up.

Anyone else doing this or has done so in the past? I really like the sensation of swimming butterfly and actually it's on par with my freestyle pace albeit at a far greater energy cost. I couldn't comprehend swimming long distance butterfly right now, maybe this could be a way to do so?
Terry demonstrates Butterfrog near the end of the TI Betterfly DVD. I'm pretty sure it's allowed in masters swimming all over the world.

What happens when you try to follow the drill sequence in the Betterfly DVD for learning the body dolphin?


Bob
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  #5  
Old 02-01-2017
ScoopUK
 
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Quote:
What happens when you try to follow the drill sequence in the Betterfly DVD for learning the body dolphin?
I bob up and down a bit not going anywhere, legs sink, then I give up.

It's not easy for me to create a wave like action through my body on land either though. I've never been able to do the worm or truffle shuffle. Haha
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  #6  
Old 02-02-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopUK View Post
I bob up and down a bit not going anywhere, legs sink, then I give up.

It's not easy for me to create a wave like action through my body on land either though. I've never been able to do the worm or truffle shuffle. Haha
Is there any way you could have someone make a video of you trying this and post it here?


Bob
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2017
ScoopUK
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
Is there any way you could have someone make a video of you trying this and post it here?
Unfortunately not. Not allowed to film at pools here. My stroke feels nice and relaxed though. It is more like the butterfly for boomers Terry utilises but I use 2 kicks in the cycle instead of one. Being nice flatter I lunge into streamline and hold it for a moment while kicking then start catch again. One thing non-TI coach was able to help me with was to lead with the head so rather than look up so much I imagine driving the top of the head through the water and my chin barely breaking the surface of the water. I'm sure it doesn't look like the fast turnover of modern competitive butterfly but more like a throwback to the breaststroke evolution.
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  #8  
Old 02-21-2017
ScoopUK
 
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Went to the pool today and did a lot of butterfly in my session. Firstly I had this breakthrough where I'm now really trying to lead with the head so I could feel myself undulating through the water more with a typical 2 beat dolphin kick. I've been working on similar with my breaststroke so I guess that has allowed me to transfer the 'skill' across to fly.

Also I tried the butterfly with breaststroke kick. My observations are that it is currently less energy demanding for me and you can certainly swim butterfly far flatter. It feels like far less of a full body stroke. I also noticed the propulsion from the breaststroke kick gives you a great surge forward, greater than the dolphin kick. If you choose to 'ride-the-glide' the pull feels like much more of an explosive strength exercise but if you initiate the pull while you are still gliding at a fastish pace it takes some of the load off your shoulders/arms much like in freestyle. Be good to experiment with the amount of overlap in the stroke, particularly as the breaststroke kick adds a lot of drag. Maybe a fast stroke rate wouldn't be advantageous? Have to find the tipping point.

As it turns out I may not be able to race in an ASA masters competition so this is just for fun rather than for competitive reasons. That said, whats the score with race starts using this technique? I guess from the dive to breakout you can only use dolphin kicks, a breaststroke type pullout would be illegal in competition right?
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  #9  
Old 02-23-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopUK View Post
As it turns out I may not be able to race in an ASA masters competition so this is just for fun rather than for competitive reasons. That said, whats the score with race starts using this technique? I guess from the dive to breakout you can only use dolphin kicks, a breaststroke type pullout would be illegal in competition right?
In masters swimming, you are permitted, after the start and after each turn, to do one arm pull that must bring you to the surface. You are only allowed to do one breaststroke kick before this arm pull, though you may do more than one dolphin kick. After the initial arm pull that brings you to the surface, you are only allowed to do one breaststroke kick per arm stroke.


Bob
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2017
melissabay
 
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Legal - arm pull, breaststroke kick
Legal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick
Legal - dolphin kick, arm pull, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick
Illegal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, breaststroke kick
Illegal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick

http://adoriasoft.com/
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