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  #1  
Old 07-10-2014
jhersperger jhersperger is offline
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Default TI as a "Workout"

I got back into swimming for fitness a few years ago when a couple of herniated disks prohibited me from running. Prior to starting TI a few months ago, a mile in the pool left me sucking wind and my arm and back muscles exhausted. I was also typically quite hungry when I got home, probably due to the muscle burn. It certainly felt like a REAL full body work out, aerobically and anaerobically, albeit painful (especially in my neck). But with TI, I find the primary stress during the swim comes from breathing, or rather, from breathing poorly, which is something I'm working on. But once out of the pool, I feel very good, occasionally with some fatigue in the upper back, but for the most part, there's no one part of my body that is burning with fatigue. I'm not as hungry post-swim as I used to be. I definitely don't tire the way I used to.

I'm not complaining about this, in fact, I fully intend to stay the course with TI. For all I know, TI swimming might be providing a superior "workout." But I'm curious how other people feel about TI from a fitness perspective or a weight loss perspective. I'm particularly interested in how the more advanced TI swimmers feel post work out. Where do you feel it most? And if your TI swimming is particularly in sync (or out of sync) on a given day, do you feel any differently? And does anyone have any suggestions on how to notch up the intensity of the workout without sacrificing technique? It is ironic that I've come back to swimming to get fit, and am choosing (and very much enjoying) a style that doesn't feel all that much like a tough workout.
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Old 07-10-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Same DPS , 10-30% faster pace. Still easy?
Mat Hudson has written some articles about fitness swimming.
http://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2...02-fast-tempo/

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-10-2014 at 09:18 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-11-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Towards the end of this article, he makes some conjectures which I find puzzling, although I have heard similar things elsewhere. He claims that the front quadrant needs to be slow and patient, even at the cost of bringing the hand out somewhat earlier in the rear quadrant as a way to increase tempo. The front quadrant is precisely where the tendency is greatest to push water down, as opposed to backwards. This is certainly why it pays to focus on perfecting this part of the stroke, so as to minimize this effect. But the rear part of the stroke is where one most naturally pushes water back, instead of down. Why rob Peter to pay Paul in this way? I suppose one can claim that, as the elbow straightens at the rear, the tendency is to push water up instead of back, so again this becomes a less critical part of the stroke. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-11-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

yes, I have some thoughts. But honestly: You should write your thoughts as comment to Mat's article and surely you'll get a far better and correct answer within some days... And with copy and paste we all may participate from it here in forum...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #5  
Old 07-11-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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I agree with Werner. I have also had questions after reading some of Mat's articles. I either post these questions in the comments, or email him directly. He is usually very prompt in answering.

Sherry
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Old 07-11-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Thanks folks! I followed your suggestion.
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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back to the OPs question, it is certainly very possible to get a "workout" swimming TI, as it really shoudl be with any sport. In fact, even the most efficient swimmers are only ~ 10% efficient which menas they are losing 90% of the energy they put into the swim as body heat/burnt calories!

Compared to biking or runnign which are closer to 20-25% efficiency.

Shouldn't even an efficient TI swimmer be able to burn more calories than an inefficient cyclist or runner?

This is kind of a trick question, but food for thought.

For any individual (swim, bike, run, bowling, darts, etc) as you take skill and add intensity there is the possibility that skill can deteriorate. So you want to find that tipping point and operate just below that so as to keep your skills intact while burnign "maximum energy" for the effort.

Well planned out sets to include physiologic breakpoints of various efforts can leave you completely taxed.

The fact that no one part of your body feels more tired than the rest is the way that it should be. swimming is a full body experience.

Do you think at the end of the day the dolphin says, "Boy my left pectoral fin is really tired today, I htink tomorrow I'll try turning right the whole time".

Lots of silly questions from me today.

I agree with mat, as to many top swim coaches not even affiliated with TI that the relative contribution of the stroke at the back end is tiny compared with the effort requried to do it (all from the tricep) whereas thought and effort applied at the front of the stroke results ina strong grip or anchor in the water contributing much more to stroke lenght.

Watch some sprinters on youtube at various stroke rates and note where they exit the water vs. distance swimmers.

Anyway, that's for another day.

To the OP, try swimming TI at a variety of paces and see how you feel.
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

I agree with mat, as to many top swim coaches not even affiliated with TI that the relative contribution of the stroke at the back end is tiny compared with the effort requried to do it (all from the tricep) whereas thought and effort applied at the front of the stroke results ina strong grip or anchor in the water contributing much more to stroke lenght.
OK, I'll take this as the truth, although intuitively, I felt, as long as I could apply propulsive force in the right general direction, it wouldn't hurt to apply it as far down my torso as my arm would stretch comfortably before starting its above water recovery. My reasoning, such as it was, was that it was better to be applying any positive forward force, rather than zero (by exiting "prematurely", i.e. before the arm-length range had run out), at which time the net body position would start to decelerate, having no forward propulsive force, and still having drag, a negative directional force.

I was also trying to extend (dorsiflex) my hand at the wrist joint, once it moved past the shoulder joint, trying to keep my palm as perpendicular to the line of travel as possible, and trying to minimise the upward direction of the palm (and resultant downward force) that would otherwise occur at the final part of the arm pull, somewhat mimicking the principle of trying to achieve an early vertical forearm at the beginning of the arm pull to minimise the front quadrant pushing down effect on the water. ( I was also trying to add a final backward direction flick of my fingers on the water as I exited; I guess that was more imagination at work than actual propulsion?)

So, I guess, if it's not worth it to try and prolong the arm-stroke as long as possible to the bitter end, then it's also not useful to trying and keep the palm perpendicular to the direction of travel as long as possible. Am I correct here?

Last edited by sclim : 07-12-2014 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 07-12-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Following Werner's suggestion, I posted my questions in this regard under Mat's original article and he has given a lengthy reply, if anyone is interested. What I found interesting in what he said (if I understand it correctly) is that the focus in the front quadrant should be more on opening a hole in the water, rather than finding an efficient way to pull back with a good catch. But that is just my paraphrase. You can read the original on line!
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Don't take that opening a hole in the water to literally.
Every time swimcoaches start to talk scientific its time to raise an eyebrow.
Extended arm is completely out the projected trunck surface, especially with the wide TI deep spearing arm. Its cutting an extra hole hole at the side of the body when spearing a bit deep.
Well forget it. I like coach Mat and his passion for swimming. Even considering taking a course in the nice mediiteranian sun. Only wish TI coaches stopped making all those sketchy physical explanations of swim feelings/mental images.

How much anyone should use the back end of the stroke?
As long as the transition of pulling the hand out the water and moving forward isn't too jerky. its an easy extra push. Its not only the triceps, but also the finish of the hip roll.
The extra push on the end buys you some time to slowly get the hand in a vertical position at the front if you spear at a shallow angle.
But I also feel grabbing the water as far in front as possible is a good thing. You have to have the flexibility to grab it up front and not push it down. Everybody has to find a best personal compromise here.
Some coaches explain the benefit of the last part of the stroke by saying this is the strongest position. Its true you can exert the most (static) force backwards in this position, but can you also transmit the most effective power at this position?
The EVF position is relatively weak force wise, but hydrodynamic drag wise its the best position. Getting most out the possible effective movementlenght is the most efficient in nearly all sports. Why should swimming be different.
As long as it doesnt hurt smoothness, squeezing the most out of the strokes is best I think. Is it very important?
You loose a bit if you shorten at the back or the front, but if the remaining underwater mecanics are sound you can still be a very efficient swimmer.
Being sure you have a streamlined, taut and balanced basic body vessel has the be the foundation for any kind of propulsion mechanism, whether front or front and back oriented.

This girs exit l starts to become a bit jerky at the end if she swims at a relaxed pace at the end. Is it too much? If the hand is facing back until the end water is trown more backwards then upwards force is used weill.
Its detail stuff. Catch also isn't top,breathing disturbs balance, but basics are good. Thats important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR9J0TY5rRQ

Toussaint wrote an article about the rear end of the arm stroke where he claims the arm movements acts like a centrifugal pump, throwing the water radially out at the end. In this case holding the hand in line with the arm is a good thing.
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/a...ewFile/613/538
We still don't get everything what is going on exactly while swimming.....Not even TI.(coaches)...;-)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-12-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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