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  #21  
Old 07-16-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I do believe an outstretched arm is more streamlined than holding the arm beside the body.
...
Should we copy the elites? I don't. Don't have elites flexibility. I go wider for an easier catch. Sacrifice some streamline to get into a better propulsive position earlier.
This seems obvious to me too, though I think the area presented to the direction of travel remains pretty much identical but that the outstretched arm makes a hole in the water. Went online to find the science for the resistance etc and wish I hadn't http://www.ivorbittle.co.uk/Articles...ne%20again.htm Something for an engineer with time on their hands! All I could gather was that it's the ducks that have it ;)

But back to swimming, why is flexibility an issue if you can choose the position of the leading hand i.e on centreline/on track at surface/below surface? There is little effort required to move the hand out, just flex the wrist and the water pushes it there accordingly.

I can see that at tempos below 1.00 the time taken for this movement is not available but at lower tempos it doesn't seem to be a problem, or are you saying it is?
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I came to the same conclusion regarding the difference between long slow swimming and swimming at a higher frequency.
When swimming slow and long I like to spear more towards the centreline for some reason.
There is enough time to curl your arm around the ball and transition to the pull.
Pinky leads at the start, stroking gently over and down the ball, and wrist takes over later when power comes in.
At higher stroke rates it becomes a mess and getting the forearm down fast enough without pushing water down and hurting the shoulder becomes a problem.
Spearing a bit wide and deep as TI proposes is a safe/good solution/compromise to keep you out of trouble, shoulder /balance/streamline wise.

Nice articles on the bulbs. Never understood it, but now I have a grasp of its function.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-16-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
This seems obvious to me too, though I think the area presented to the direction of travel remains pretty much identical but that the outstretched arm makes a hole in the water. Went online to find the science for the resistance etc and wish I hadn't http://www.ivorbittle.co.uk/Articles...ne%20again.htm Something for an engineer with time on their hands! All I could gather was that it's the ducks that have it ;)
LOL! My reaction exactly! But it's fascinating, no? Gives new meaning to still waters run deep! So much going on that we never even suspected before.

How do I get hold of this guy? Maybe he can tow me at different speeds with a strain gauge on the tow rope, with different bulbous latex caps on my head, observing the wave pattern and with the data, devise a design that lets me swim fast with less effort, and more importantly, not having to screw around all these hours in the damn pool with your head down, counting SPL and listening to that @@@**%%%$$$### beep beep beep beep beep beep beep
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  #24  
Old 07-27-2014
rapido rapido is offline
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I'm a newbie to "TI", I had a coaching session a couple of weeks ago. Whilst I am probably nowhere near perfecting the technique, I have certainly noticed a difference in the amount of effort required and the fact I feel much less tired after a session in the pool. I am also a keen runner and I liken the "TI" technique to reducing the uphill gradient - making the workout easier.

I don't want to get out of the "TI" technique so I too was wondering how I can sustain the same level of calorie burning. I can only think of 3 ways...

1) Longer session
2) Faster stroke
3) Drag Shorts

I'm thinking that the drag shorts would be good, adding more resistance but keeping everything else the same.
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  #25  
Old 07-27-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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OMG: why, when you've stumbled on a goldmine how to reduce drag, would you want to add it on again in the form of a parachute?

If you want to generate more intensity, you can always try to go faster. But if you're anything like me, with this fragile, subtle, newly captured skill (in my case, still glaringly incomplete), you risk losing it even at slightly faster speeds (I'm talking about deteriorating mechanical technique here, not about the inevitable exponential drag increases at increased swimming speeds, even if while done at maximum efficiency).

Perhaps your own coach can give you more pertinent advice based upon a more detailed knowledge of your capabilities and current technique. But if I were you, recognising a further potential for a lot of improvement, a fruitful approach might be to try to stay relaxed, but develop your stroke distance, or to put it in the way you would monitor this, to try to decrease your stroke count per pool length, while keeping the stroke frequency or tempo constant. A waterproof electronic Tempo Trainer may be necessary to help in the latter requirement, and my involve a bit of a learning curve to get used to it, some people more than others.
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  #26  
Old 07-27-2014
rapido rapido is offline
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agree the faster speed option has the potential for the technique going to pot. I just thought that artificially adding drag in training would give me a tougher workout but with no impact on the technique. I have yet to to an outdoor session wearing wetsuit, not sure how that will impact TI with the additional buoyancy, particularly on the legs / feet possibly coming out of the water.
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  #27  
Old 07-27-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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If you accept the fact that the most important aspect of developing good technique is an appropriate "feel for the water" I would expect that artificial drag would mess that up quite a bit and thus hinder your progress.

Many years ago, when I first got into swimming due to running injuries, I realized that I wasn't going to get the workout that I get from running until I developed some technique. As a result, I bit the bullet and decided that the investment was worth the effort (in my case, I had no real choice) and didn't try to get a workout, instead just focussing on technique. I did this for somewhere between 6 months and a year.

Here is another proposal you might find interesting. Teach yourself butterfly. If you want to get a workout, butterfly will definitely do it. That said, I think that technique plays an even more important role in butterfly than in freestyle. But you can intersperse butterfly with your freestyle workouts and tire yourself out even without good technique. And butterfly tires you out, even when you are working on your technique.
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  #28  
Old 07-27-2014
rapido rapido is offline
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Danny, my kids are club swimmers and nothing I would dread more than doing fly. I don't think my back could cope with it to be honest (not flexible enough). I do a lot of running and a bit of cycling in the gym so perhaps rely on them for the higher intensity cardio workout.
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  #29  
Old 07-27-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapido View Post
agree the faster speed option has the potential for the technique going to pot. I just thought that artificially adding drag in training would give me a tougher workout but with no impact on the technique. I have yet to to an outdoor session wearing wetsuit, not sure how that will impact TI with the additional buoyancy, particularly on the legs / feet possibly coming out of the water.
As a leg sinker I at first seized upon the idea of using the wetsuit as my salvation. Then it was patiently pointed out to me that an artificial "leg boost", as it were, would do nothing to help me develop an intrinsic feel for balance, nor any mechanism to achieve it. So disappointing. So sensible. So much like life (if it's worth while, it often is correspondingly difficult to achieve). But perhaps only understandable and acceptable, given that the low lying fruit (you won't drown, trust me; trust the water; learn not to struggle, and you will find yourself not killing yourself every time you try to swim...) came so gratifyingly easily lol.

Seriously, I don't see why you won't experiment in trying to get your SPL lower than your current range. I find it so technically challenging that it's mesmerising, and when I'm not that efficient and pushing the end of my range, I find it quite exhausting. That might be satisfying for you.

Last edited by sclim : 07-27-2014 at 11:10 PM.
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  #30  
Old 07-27-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapido View Post
Danny, my kids are club swimmers and nothing I would dread more than doing fly. I don't think my back could cope with it to be honest (not flexible enough). I do a lot of running and a bit of cycling in the gym so perhaps rely on them for the higher intensity cardio workout.
I hear this complaint about lacking back flexibility a lot, but I'm not sure it takes that much. The power of the fly stroke (as I see it) comes from the pelvis, not so much the back. If you already have a coach, ask him about the fly and see what he says. If you try it and your back hurts, then it's not for you. I know that my back and shoulder flexibility stink but I can still have a lot of fun playing around with this. Learning fly, just like freestyle, takes some patience to develop sufficient technique to get started. But, as I said, even with patience you will get a workout!
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