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  #1  
Old 08-19-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Default SL (Stroke Length) vs. HEIGHT...

I am 1m91cm (6'3'') and my best Stroke Length is about 1.6m (15 stroke per 25m Lap).

I am wondering if there is a way to define efficiency (or "TI greatness") through a ratio of SL vs. HEIGHT

For example, in my case the ratio would be 1.6m/1.9m = 84%

That % could be a way to classify how advanced or how much more room for improvement a TI Swimmer has.

I also wonder what is the MAXIMUM SL. I read somewhere you cannot have a stroke length higher than your height, but them Mr. Shinji covers a 25m pool in 12 strokes (ie SL=2m)

What are your thoughts on this subject? ALEX
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  #2  
Old 08-19-2011
Ghul Ghul is offline
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Remember to subtract a push-off, so in 25m pool a 5m push-off would mean only 20m actually swum. Wing-span (eg wrist to wrist arms streched out)
might a better divisor than height (eg Phelps has a large wing-span for his height).

It's important to have the skill to be able to achieve low stroke counts and most people need to work on this. It may not necessarily be efficient to swim at a low count though - if it is achieved by a lot of deceleration then re-acceleration then it might take more effort than a higher count. It is harder to measure but I guess effort for a given speed would be closer to what I think of as efficiency.
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  #3  
Old 08-19-2011
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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I remember, that Terry once posted a table of ideal SPL vs height.

I am too lazy to search for it, but its buried somewhere on this forum.
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  #4  
Old 08-19-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
I am 1m91cm (6'3'') and my best Stroke Length is about 1.6m (15 stroke per 25m Lap).
Check this out.
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  #5  
Old 08-20-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
I am 1m91cm (6'3'') and my best Stroke Length is about 1.6m (15 stroke per 25m Lap).

I am wondering if there is a way to define efficiency (or "TI greatness") through a ratio of SL vs. HEIGHT

For example, in my case the ratio would be 1.6m/1.9m = 84%

That % could be a way to classify how advanced or how much more room for improvement a TI Swimmer has.

I also wonder what is the MAXIMUM SL. I read somewhere you cannot have a stroke length higher than your height, but them Mr. Shinji covers a 25m pool in 12 strokes (ie SL=2m)

What are your thoughts on this subject? ALEX
First I LOVE the creation of a simple metric by which we can use to measure against ourselves and also against how we're doing against the crowd of swimmers out there.

But I'm not sure it can be done with true SL, as Ghul has mentioned since it is hard to have a consistent push-off each time we swim, and also if we're measuring against others.

Also, I think this formula would require more values than just SR and height.

I think the things we can measure that we can apply to some metric are:

1. distance of swim used for measurement
2. stroke count for a given distance
3. tempo
4. our height, definitely standing from heel to top of head, but maybe we could even use extended foot to end of toe to arms extended above head to the fingertips
5. time it took to swim the distance

I think the difficult to measure values which are also relevant are:

1. push-off speed/force which results in a distance traveled before the first stroke. this puts the start of stroke counting to be potentially at a different place each time.

2. stroke length, which will vary because we don't know 1.

Perhaps we can put together some combination of 1-5 above into an efficiency metric?
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  #6  
Old 08-20-2011
CoachPaulB CoachPaulB is offline
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I agree that there are too many other variables. One being that while two individuals may the same height the the length of their legs and torso may be significantly different than one anothers. I for example, am 5'11" but my inseam or leg length is only about 30.5 inches. Thus I have a long upper body and in fact my arms are also not as long as most individuals with similar leg/torso ratio. I only know this because of being fit on bicycles so many times. So I would be doing myself a disservice should I attempt to comply to a simple one size fits all height to stroke length formula.
Individual exploration using some of Terry's recommendations for finding ones optimum strokes per lap has helped me achieve a better level of efficiency in this area.
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  #7  
Old 08-20-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghul View Post
Remember to subtract a push-off, so in 25m pool a 5m push-off would mean only 20m actually swum. Wing-span (eg wrist to wrist arms streched out) might a better divisor than height (eg Phelps has a large wing-span for his height).
Good point. My pushoff is 3.5m. So that means my effective SL is actually SL=(25-3.5)/17 = 1.26m (66% Ratio vs. HEIGHT)

RINCEWIND: BORATE: Thank for the link, that was indeed a very helpful table.

Last edited by Alex-SG : 08-20-2011 at 08:00 AM.
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  #8  
Old 08-24-2011
KenW KenW is offline
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I’m not sure SPL is where the action is at. I swam a few 500’s today with an average SPL of about 13. That is below the rough range of 15-18 that what Terry suggested in his other post for my height of 5’10”. The problem of this is my swim pace was very, very slow given my TT was set at 1.3. At the moment, I cannot go any faster than this without getting thoroughly winded. I even finished the workout with a single 25 yard swim at 11 SPL at 1.3 when I did a lap just to see how low I can get my SPL down if I worked hard at streamlining my body perfectly, keeping my butt and feet as high up as possible, and catching the water as well as I possible could.

While I can pull off these great SPL numbers, I cannot get my TT faster than 1.30 at the moment. Hence, I cannot swim very fast. My pace is currently 1:35 per 100 yards whereas it was about 1:30 per 100 yards a year ago before I started working on improving my stroke.

I suspect what SPL hides is how relaxed I am or not when I am swimming at that SPL.
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2011
terry terry is offline
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The SPL to Height table I created was meant to be a loose guide, not a strict one. As Dave and others have mentioned there not one SPL to aim for, rather a range that can apply to a variety of situations. I spent 10 years trying to reduce my SPL, but at the end of it - late 40s to early 50s - while I could maintain 12 SPL for up to 1000 yards, my nervous system had become so thoroughly conditioned to a very low Tempo that my speeds were relatively slow. Soon after I began to focus on acclimating to a steadily higher SR. By my mid-50s I was taking 2 to 3 more strokes per length on average, but swimming much faster.
Matter of fact the main item on my to-do list for tomorrow involves writing a chapter in the new TI book that relates precisely how I arrived at the insight it was time to give up some SL in favor of SR. Today's chapter was about the period I spent driving SPL down, and why.
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
The SPL to Height table I created was meant to be a loose guide, not a strict one. As Dave and others have mentioned there not one SPL to aim for, rather a range that can apply to a variety of situations. I spent 10 years trying to reduce my SPL, but at the end of it - late 40s to early 50s - while I could maintain 12 SPL for up to 1000 yards, my nervous system had become so thoroughly conditioned to a very low Tempo that my speeds were relatively slow. Soon after I began to focus on acclimating to a steadily higher SR. By my mid-50s I was taking 2 to 3 more strokes per length on average, but swimming much faster.
Matter of fact the main item on my to-do list for tomorrow involves writing a chapter in the new TI book that relates precisely how I arrived at the insight it was time to give up some SL in favor of SR. Today's chapter was about the period I spent driving SPL down, and why.
i am very much looking fwd to the new TI book. it would be great to look at every data point we can realistically collect (not just SR, SL, etc) and how we can use those data points to improve our swimming. will you write about the others as well, and some suggested or example uses in training?
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