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  #171  
Old 06-29-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.
This may make sense in Germany, but I’m trying to clarify in California - appears more contradiction. And this may be the language chosen. I would change ‘tricks’ to skills and ‘errors’ to obvious opportunities.

There are both primal adaptations and intentional adaptations. In Shelly T’s case there are more primal. 1. Head high, tense shoulders, arched back. Tense shoulders arched back are consequence of high head looking forward. 2. Exentending high side arm flat, pressure is all on already tense shoulder and triggers low side arm to rotate body all from the shoulder of low side (pulling) arm. 3. Low side arm bounces off the hip at exit changes to flat trajectory swinging arm low from shoulder due to lack of rotation, causes lateral spine twist, “core soft”. 1, 2, & 3 are primal adaptations and there are some obvious opportunities. 1, 2, & 3 would cause the swimmer with a low aquatic profile hips to drop a foot or more that would only add to the primal coping responses to imbalance. I’m guessing that Shelly T’s shoulders (especially left shoulder) and lower back are torched after a 10k or even a 5k.

Due to Shelly T’s short wingspan, arm to torso weight is low, difficult to rotate body enough. She needs at least 10 deg more rotation to get arm in scapular plane to keep exiting arm on the same trajectory so she doesn’t have to swing arm low from tense shoulder. Opportunities would/could be 1. Align head/spine - good posture, in line axis allows body to rotate easily. 2. Slice in recovery arm below the lungs. This will a. take pressure off the shoulder, b. access the lats, c. drive more rotation. 3. Soften legs/hips to allow hips to rotate/drive through the legs like a whip to assist in rotation. Kinetic energy doesn’t flow through a rigid leg and tense hip. 4. Release all tension in shoulder at exit, arm should easily launch out of water high without recruiting the shoulder. 1 - 4 are necessary for the low profile swimmer too to maintain balance and swim from the core (not shoulders) in whole body coordinated movement. 1 - 4 are intentional movements and fall under improving ‘skills’ - kaizen.

Although the priorities may be different for the high and low profile swimmers, the principles remain the same.

Stu
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  #172  
Old 06-29-2018
Streak Streak is offline
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To further illustrate what Stu is saying below. Here is another video of me getting some great tips form the master!. Shows well how the faults of my high side arm cause the issues with my low side arm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ6TB9gqc70

I have worked hard at correcting this and have seen some good results.
In fact after doing an asymmetric TT exercise this week I then switched off the TT and set out to do a brisk 100 and ending up breaking my PB doing a 1:25 100 yards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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Last edited by Streak : 06-29-2018 at 06:16 PM.
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  #173  
Old 06-30-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Stuart,

Quote:
This may make sense in Germany, but I’m trying to clarify in California - appears more contradiction. And this may be the language chosen. I would change ‘tricks’ to skills and ‘errors’ to obvious opportunities.
Thanks ;-)

Best regards,
Werner

PS: BTW was not clear to me, that ZT's statement related strongly to ST's style. Obviously got lost in this thread once more... but so could savour your well founded analysis. Great!
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  #174  
Old 07-02-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .
I missed commenting on this when it was current, but I have found that no upbeat is necessary, or even desirable. Flick and hold--the rotation of the body puts the new leg in position to kick with no upkick needed at all.

Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.
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  #175  
Old 07-02-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Tom,

Quote:
Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.
Yes I am, and for (too?) long time I've been satisfied (complacent?) with it. It differs(ed) a little from more support to rotation (timed when catch goes over in press) in my relaxed pace; to my faster pace, when I try to more support spearing, then it happens a (even) little later, when press is in work together with reduced rotation.

When translating Terry's chapter about 2BK in 2.0 Mastery I stumbled over two of his remarks:

- Using the kick for support of rotation and forward speed same time. This till now happens only at a (day dependent) special SR. Lower, it supports rotation; faster it supports spear and reach forward. Trying a later kick at lower SR or vice versa leads to an uncomfortable feeling of disconnection.

- As mentioned some posts before, I 'm not able getting the sensation of Terry's constant pressure on my whole leg while kicking down, but only on the lower leg sometimes even only on its lower half or feet. The tries with an extended upkick didn't help, they led to a hollow back, or when more from the knees to much more splashes.

I've to say, actually I'm not working with my kick for higher pace but only to get the certainty being able to "feel" the differences, and my body to "understand" the theory behind... all with various SR. BTW the impact on SL is minor, most times less than +-1stroke in LCM, which may have also causes I'm not focused in for that moment.

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 07-02-2018 at 07:41 AM.
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  #176  
Old 07-05-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I missed commenting on this when it was current, but I have found that no upbeat is necessary, or even desirable. Flick and hold--the rotation of the body puts the new leg in position to kick with no upkick needed at all.

Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.

Maybe were not too far off in our thinking of the 2 beat .The upbeat I do is not mechanical or something that I try to do but rather a natural reaction of my leg from the water of the turn of my torso as my lead arm stretches forward, so it is IN SYNCH with core motion from side to side .To me it seems if you flick and hold then you would have to THINK about getting your leg back in position to flick down again.

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 07-05-2018 at 01:52 AM.
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  #177  
Old 07-05-2018
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
Maybe were not too far off in our thinking of the 2 beat .The upbeat I do is not mechanical or something that I try to do but rather a natural reaction of my leg from the water of the turn of my torso as my lead arm stretches forward, so it is IN SYNCH with core motion from side to side .To me it seems if you flick and hold then you would have to THINK about getting your leg back in position to flick down again.

Dave
I've lately been more aware of this 'up-movement' that I"ve been doing. I do an intentional up-kick to prepare for the down-kick and that's what's leading to a fair amount of drag. Need to try to eliminate that.

Last edited by novaswimmer : 07-05-2018 at 01:37 PM.
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  #178  
Old 07-05-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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The core turns toward the side ,the arm stretches forward as the leg goes up just a little and stretches back with toes pointed so at that moment the body is long and toned before the downbeat and then vice versa as you rotate to the other side. No need to THINK much about exact timing of the arm and the kick. At least that is the way it seems good balanced swimmers appear to be doing in the videos I see. Just like a good dancer you move and swing your body and it just happens .

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 07-05-2018 at 02:49 PM.
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  #179  
Old 07-05-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Dave,

That’s an excellent way to describe those actions/moves, “a dancer moves and swings the body and all the other movements happen”. Often I characterize this as major and minor movements. Get the major movements correct and all the minor complex movements will take care of themselves. No reason to micro-manage all the complexities, since if we do, we’ll probably get them wrong :-)

Cheers,

Stu
MindBodyAndSwim.com
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  #180  
Old 07-05-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
The core turns toward the side ,the arm stretches forward as the leg goes up just a little and stretches back with toes pointed so at that moment the body is long and toned before the downbeat and then vice versa as you rotate to the other side. No need to THINK much about exact timing of the arm and the kick. At least that is the way it seems good balanced swimmers appear to be doing in the videos I see. Just like a good dancer you move and swing your body and it just happens .

Dave
Yep, we may be describing the same thing in different ways to some extent.

To those who are still doing a conscious upkick for your 2BK, think about this:

As your left arm spears, your right leg kicks down so it is "ahead" of your left leg. As a result of this right-leg kick (Newton's law), your legs rotate so the right hip moves up (toward the surface of the water), helping your body move onto its side so the left side is down.

When the right arm spears, your left leg kicks down. But, since the right leg is already "ahead" of the left leg from your previous kick, no upkick is needed. Simply kick the left leg down--which rotates your legs so the left hip moves up, and your body is on its side with right side down.

After each kick, the resulting body rotation puts the next leg in perfect position to kick again, with no preparatory motion needed.
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