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  #11  
Old 08-11-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'm not aware of an official distinction between "TI" and "P" as described in this thread but I would love to see video ...
We might not be clear enough.
P gets catch i.e on the left side, with the body on the left side and leading
arm, left, angled early.
TI on the left body side, left leading arm extended all the time. When one
recovers and rotates to the right body side, when almost on the right side,
only then he angles forearm and gets the catch. Difference is substantial,
spite all elements are the same.
Obvous is to catch as early as you can. It took me time to accustom to late
oppisite side catch. P is faster? Yes. It takes all physics you could. And only
that. It is hard to get proper horizontal position. Energy dissipation or bigger.
My opinion.
With P one swims using arms. Till has energy. IT uses whole body. I breath
with P much better. It says my position is worse.
Hardly wait further opinions!
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2016
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Hi Ron Bear I'd be really interested to see your execution of TI catch timing as I am thinking you my be overgliding with a dead spot which is definitely not something we advocate.

If you can post a video it would help a lot.

Best regards

James

Last edited by CoachJamesEwart : 08-12-2016 at 03:31 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
With P one swims using arms. Till has energy. IT uses whole body
From my experience, its the opposite if you are really using a delayed catch according TI dryland or underwater drills.
Bodyroll and shoving forward over anchored arm dont go together anymore with delayed catch timing, so you use less whole body power in your stroke.

BUt as said before, without footage of actual swimmers its hard discuss whats late or whats early.
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Ron,

sorry, late in. I don't understand two points in your starting post:

- One of the points TI is critizised sometimes is the too early (deep spear/catch) already set up the spear. Now you write body roll has to be initiated before catch has to start. (I see most TI-swimmers -at least Suzanne-Tracey-Mat-Terry-Shinji) set up the catch (touched the bumper) when they initiate their rotation while recovery hand enters the water to start the spear.

- If you swim TI and P with the same SR you'll find what is faster by counting your strokes plus last quarter strokes. It's not necessary to stop with your wrist watch...

If time, please lead me on to your track.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
set up the catch (touched the bumper) when they initiate their rotation while recovery hand enters the water to start the spear.
It is really a matter of personal flavour. Really.
I get a catch at 90 degrees, not oblique of whatever you might call it.
Only then it is perpendicular. You are horizontal, forearm is vertical.
I try to visualise that forearm being on the place and not moving. What
moves it the whole body. I use all muscles to "jump", "roll"...
Momentum to go over anchor is recovery plus rotation plus kick. I have
it all perfect, till I have to breathe. Solving puzzle, ruins breathing
always.
I have no camera, so cannot post a video.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Hi CoachSuzanne,
If you are not aware that what I am describing is the official TI catch timing, then I am sure I am just in error on that point. On the other hand I know I came to that erroneous position from listening to words like, "patient lead hand". I have also seen videos of TI coaches doing what I am describing as TI, so I know my "TI" is not outside of TI. I am therefore interpreting your comment as proclaiming that having a patient lead hand that waits for the other hand spear prior to catch or having an impatient lead hand that fully forms the catch prior to the other hand spear are both within TI. Correct?

I did them both at 1.3 on the TT, so same tempo.
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  #17  
Old 08-11-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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CoachJamesEwart,
I tried to take video one time and wasn't very successful, so unfortunately I can't honor your reasonable request. I think you are correct that I tend to over-glide with a dead spot and that is part of what is causing P to be faster for me.
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  #18  
Old 08-11-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Bear View Post
Hi CoachSuzanne,
If you are not aware that what I am describing is the official TI catch timing, then I am sure I am just in error on that point. On the other hand I know I came to that erroneous position from listening to words like, "patient lead hand". I have also seen videos of TI coaches doing what I am describing as TI, so I know my "TI" is not outside of TI. I am therefore interpreting your comment as proclaiming that having a patient lead hand that waits for the other hand spear prior to catch or having an impatient lead hand that fully forms the catch prior to the other hand spear are both within TI. Correct?

I did them both at 1.3 on the TT, so same tempo.
based on this description I'd say probably both within the realm of TI teaching. Even a cell phone video above water would helpa little bit.

I do this same type of experimentation with both myself and with my swimmers.

The TI basic instruction methodology of reaching to the bumper and drping the arm over the hood of a VW beetle as a visualization is a way of helping form the catch very early in the stroke. The patience comes from not ripping that arm through the wter until the entering arm is ready to take it's place and streamline.

i won't say this is exaclty the same timing olympians use, but there are a many similarities

We don't teach skills that are "fast" or "slow" we have a teaching progression that teaches excellent swimming mechanics. Terry's progressions were built from 20+ years of teaching kids through collegiate swimmers including 24 national champions (sounds fast to me), and then translating his new awarenesses to teaching adults those same skills...but in a specific framework that continues to evolve.

Words are hard to visualize which is why we are always asking for a video.

I also don't disagree that there are an awful lot of videos showing TI swimmers & coaches hanging out for a long time wiht lead arm extended...but watch terry...he doesn't do that...yet he is still patient. Here's a video of a fast swimmer who is not patient at all as an example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHXB...ature=youtu.be

He basically has no catch...the patience isn't in waiting to stroke, the patience is in shaping the catch before stroking. this can be done earlier (like you are describing with "P" and like I try to do as it is easier on my shoulders) or later (like coach Todd Erickson for example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmd_T-3tMdQ

That' works for Todd, as his 15.5 hour english channel attempt attests to! But even side by side you can see 2 TI coaches with different catch timing.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #19  
Old 08-11-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Werner,
I believe that you and CoachSuzanne are in agreement that TI does not insist lead hand stays patient until other hand spears. Part of the reason I did the experiment is that I thought I was supposed to be keeping that lead hand patient.

I agree about the stroke rate and stroke count. I always knew what the time was going to be before I checked it. That is largely due to some advice that Coach Stuart gave me on this forum to always count the same number of beeps prior to first stroke. Prior to that advice, my stroke count and time weren't linked so mathematically.

Ron
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2016
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Hi there

Yes we encourage a patient lead arm but not to the extent that there is the dead spot you describe but sometimes as part of the process we encourage people to exaggerate the patient lead arm in order to learn not to "snatch the catch" too early and to use the spearing arm to drive forwards. The catch should initiate just before the recovering arm catches up in order to eliminate that dead spot. Sounds like you may just be over cooking the concept a bit at the moment. You'll get a better feeling of flow and momentum if you initiate that catch a teency bit sooner.
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