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  #21  
Old 04-08-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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As far as I understand it, you have to see it as a small ball joint situated on foundation thats also sliding on another ball joint,
The first balljoint is the round top of the upperarm that rotates in the shoulderblade, the second balljoint is the shoulderblade itself that slides on the (ballshaped) ribcage.
If the shoulderblade cant slide over the ribcage, the small balljoint hits its limits of range of motion much earlier.
Stretch, stretch, stretch...
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  #22  
Old 04-08-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
As far as I understand it, you have to see it as a small ball joint situated on foundation thats also sliding on another ball joint,
The first balljoint is the round top of the upperarm that rotates in the shoulderblade, the second balljoint is the shoulderblade itself that slides on the (ballshaped) ribcage.
If the shoulderblade cant slide over the ribcage, the small balljoint hits its limits of range of motion much earlier.
Stretch, stretch, stretch...
What you are saying makes sense, but I don't think it is what the PT people are trying to do. You are saying one needs more flexibility, but they are saying that you need to strengthen the muscles around the shoulder blade in order to keep the shoulder stable, and this will help avoid impinging on the tendons.

They are also trying to increase my range of motion (and they have succeeded...we just measured it!), but I still don't understand how the muscles in the shoulder blade are needed to stabilize the shoulder joint. It would make more sense to me if they were trying to strengthen the muscles in the rotator cuff to do that.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think its almost always good idea to improve the range of movement of the shoulderblade (and also to strenghten the muscles that move the shoulderblade), but most important is to keep the balljoint of the upperarm in its proper position during movement of the upperarm.
Thats achieved by strenghtening the rotator cuff muscles, whos main function is to keep that joint positioned properly relative to the shoulderblade.
Stretching the rotater cuff muscles in a rigid shoulderblade is exactly the wrong stretching action.
A lot of stretches do this instead of improving the range of motion of the shoulderblade.
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Stability first. Flexibility optional. It's soooooo easy to overstretchbthe shoulder muscles when the problem is scapular stability.

The shoulder blade needs to be stable and planted on the ribcage to transmit forces between the torso and the arm or hand. When the scapula can't hold its place or comes off the ribcage (winging) much more stress is placed on the rotator cuff muscles and shoulder capsule that can cause pain and injury.


Stabilize stabilize stabilize. Then stabilize some more. Stretch a wee wee bit...not muchand not until after you're stabilized.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Stability first. Flexibility optional. It's soooooo easy to overstretchbthe shoulder muscles when the problem is scapular stability.

The shoulder blade needs to be stable and planted on the ribcage to transmit forces between the torso and the arm or hand. When the scapula can't hold its place or comes off the ribcage (winging) much more stress is placed on the rotator cuff muscles and shoulder capsule that can cause pain and injury.


Stabilize stabilize stabilize. Then stabilize some more. Stretch a wee wee bit...not muchand not until after you're stabilized.
If we want to swim from the inside out, it certainly makes sense that all of the connections between the core and the limbs must be stable. It's also comforting that you and my PT seem to agree on this subject, even though I am still having some trouble visualizing the connection between a loose shoulder blade and stressing the rotator cuff. So I just started googling and found this link very helpful
http://breakingmuscle.com/mobility-r...der-injuries-0

Thanks, as always, for your input Suzanne.
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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So how to check if you shoulderblades are stabil enough?

Luckily the unloaded free arm shoulderblade back pulling exercises that increase range of movement increas strength at the same time.

Some stuff about flexibility and stabliily:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81x0NlZe0es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2sh...&nohtml5=False
and still a good overview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0N...e#t=309.610645
Some flexibility test for ambitious swimmers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh6E...&nohtml5=False
And for the unrealistic ambitious swimmers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9B1WyTOw9g

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-10-2016 at 09:43 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-12-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post

Keepīng everything this simple in the head helps my swimming if things get sloppy.
Hopefully it can help others too.
Thanks ZT, today I focused on this during a long steady set and it helped. We should always remember it: as long as the arms are always kept in front of this plane (call it scapular plane or whatever) the shoulders are safe and it's easier to keep the whole body taut and connected, the stroke feels "compact".

Moreover, when stretching forward on entry, I focused on reaching further not by spearing shallower (which could eventually harm balance and/or "disconnect" the arm from the rest of the body) but by moving the scapula forward while keeping the arms well in front of the plane. Again, safe shoulders and connected body.

Finally, keeping both arms in front of the plane is the same tip Richard Quick used to recommend when swimming butterfly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_AU...7SZWiZgMhoDWpQ

I believe practicing some butterfly like this could help building a rhythmical healty not overrotated freestyle stroke as well.

Salvo
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  #28  
Old 04-12-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Thanks ZT, today I focused on this during a long steady set and it helped. We should always remember it: as long as the arms are always kept in front of this plane (call it scapular plane or whatever) the shoulders are safe and it's easier to keep the whole body taut and connected, the stroke feels "compact".

Moreover, when stretching forward on entry, I focused on reaching further not by spearing shallower (which could eventually harm balance and/or "disconnect" the arm from the rest of the body) but by moving the scapula forward while keeping the arms well in front of the plane. Again, safe shoulders and connected body.

Finally, keeping both arms in front of the plane is the same tip Richard Quick used to recommend when swimming butterfly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_AU...7SZWiZgMhoDWpQ

I believe practicing some butterfly like this could help building a rhythmical healty not overrotated freestyle stroke as well.

Salvo
this is much more difficult to do with butterfly because you don't have the capability you have in freestyle of waiting for your body to rotate before going into a catch. Of course, one consequence of this is that you have to recover with a straight arm, but you also need good shoulder flexibility. If you look at the arm position of the swimmer just before starting the catch in the above film (and all good butterflyers) the arms are above and behind the head before starting the catch. People like me can (and must) compromise on this, but we pay an even heavier price for not doing this than must be paid by freestylers who spear deep instead of shallow.
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2016
ti97
 
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Here is another Richard Quick video where he describes a problem with the zipper drill creating eventual shoulder injury:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxKK7Wed9jg

If I drag my fingertips painting wide tracks on the surface while properly rolling on my long axis, is that sufficent to ensure that I'm staying within the scapular plane?
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti97 View Post
Here is another Richard Quick video where he describes a problem with the zipper drill creating eventual shoulder injury:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxKK7Wed9jg

If I drag my fingertips painting wide tracks on the surface while properly rolling on my long axis, is that sufficent to ensure that I'm staying within the scapular plane?
I don't think that dragging your fingertips and painting wide tracks guarantees that you are in the scapular plane, although it certainly helps. Just use the various diagrams that have already been posted in this thread and check your elbow/arm position, either while executing a recovery on your bed or in a mirror and you should easily be able to see if you are in front of the plane separating your front from your back or not. Once you understand the geometry involved, you'll know whether or not you are doing it correctly.
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