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  #11  
Old 04-07-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim,

I did use plane but prefer using arc, or "scapular arc" which scapular plane falls on. The coronal plane is when back and arms are on same plane analogous to laying flat with back on floor, arms extended out. In this position, you are pinching your shoulder blades (scapula) together slightly and arms are outside of the "scapula arc".

Plane is flat, no shape - our backs are rounded and each of us have a unique shape. Large males, broad shoulders, arc is bigger, whereas a petite female, narrow shoulders, a bit more rounded or smaller arc. I'm looking at extended arms, shoulders, back as a whole shape, not as individual anatomical pieces.

A good way to see and feel *your* shape is to stand facing a mirror, extend your arms out 90 degrees parallel to floor, fingers point to each at each wall, palms facing forward, move arms forward about 5 degrees until tension between shoulders goes away, neutral position. I had a PT in my last workshop who liked "scapular arc" (although it didn't fall into her standard textbook terms or 'basic science' either) and she added: "move hands/arms forward until you see fingertips in your peripheral vision, like hugging a giant cylinder".

In this forward, arc like position, If you were to draw an imaginary curve along the outside of your body from knuckles, elbow, through each shoulder blade (or each scapula) to opposite knuckles - that's the arc shape I'm referring to.

Maybe there's a textbook term for this curve, arc like shape that makes up each of us, but haven't found it yet.

Stuart
OK, I get a clear idea of where you're saying the upper arm should be -- just a little ahead (anterior) of the coronal plane, but not quite so far as the true scapular plane. This is a little ahead of ZT's revised clarification, but in actual real life, I think the variation in individuals plus the limitations of our precision works out to pretty close to the same thing.

To me, even if accepting a non-standard terminology, I think the use of "arc" confuses things unnecessarily. As you say, the plane falls upon the arc that you describe, by which I interpret you mean the plane must go through a tangent of the arc you describe. The arc you describe is merely the path that the scapula takes sliding over the back of the thorax as it retracts and protracts. But at any instant the scapula must be at some point along your arc. If you mean that the angle of the upper arm might vary according to whatever point on this arc the scapula is on, i.e. at whatever degree of scapular retraction/protraction the scapula might happen to be, you could still specify the same thing by specifying that the humerus (upper arm) stay in the scapular plane. By staying in the plane it could still angulate up and down (superiorly, inferiorly in anatomical position), and being a straight bone it could still rotate in the shoulder joint to move the forearm in different places out of the scapular plane if the elbow was flexed.

Unless I'm missing your point entirely. But I don't think I am -- in essence you are saying that in recovery the (upper) arm neither reaches in the direction backwards or forwards of the natural direction it would stick out of coming out of the shoulder, or at most, minimally so. Any apparent circular movement of the elbow is largely achieved by axial rotation of the trunk in its regular left right rotation cycle.
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  #12  
Old 04-07-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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For me it simply can be helpful to keep the mental picture simple, and that simple picture is imagining a movement mostly happening in the front/backplane and rotating the body instead of the picture where arms are moving more in circles perpendicular to that plane (windmilling without rotation).

People are tended to move to the last picture too much and to the first picture too little.
Imagining the described mental image and combining it with bringing the arns to the front swiftly improves balance and gives a pretty arm recovery.
At the moment I also think it can inhibit getting full power in the stroke because it feels a bit upperbody focussed and promotes gliding after arm entry, but we will see how this unfolds.

it does have a certain recovery feel to it. You get that spaghetti arms impression that some swimmrs have when looking at them from behind.
Even this windmilling type swimmer has that relaxation in the arms when seen from behind. The arms are casually thrown forward helped by body rotation. She probably has a very elegant style when swinning relaxed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35LiTdN7K48
The only strange thing is that it often goes together with a C shaped underwaterpull.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-07-2016 at 11:44 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-08-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
For me it simply can be helpful to keep the mental picture simple, and that simple picture is imagining a movement mostly happening in the front/backplane and rotating the body instead of the picture where arms are moving more in circles perpendicular to that plane (windmilling without rotation).

People are tended to move to the last picture too much and to the first picture too little.
Imagining the described mental image and combining it with bringing the arns to the front swiftly improves balance and gives a pretty arm recovery.
At the moment I also think it can inhibit getting full power in the stroke because it feels a bit upperbody focussed and promotes gliding after arm entry, but we will see how this unfolds.

it does have a certain recovery feel to it. You get that spaghetti arms impression that some swimmrs have when looking at them from behind.
Even this windmilling type swimmer has that relaxation in the arms when seen from behind. The arms are casually thrown forward helped by body rotation. She probably has a very elegant style when swinning relaxed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35LiTdN7K48
The only strange thing is that it often goes together with a C shaped underwaterpull.
Is this an elite competitor? Doesn't she drop her elbows more than usual in elite levels?

Why is this C-shaped underwater pull strange in context?
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  #14  
Old 04-08-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Here's good description/illustration of scapular, frontal and sagittal plane, 45 degs apart. I'm assuming these planes are fixed like Cartesian planes. Which makes make me like Boomer's "scapular arc" description even more so. The best information lie in the comments: http://b-reddy.org/2013/12/30/are-yo...capular-plane/

If the recovery arm is at 45 degs from the frontal plane, unless body is rotated 90 degs, recovery arm would be in the water. Elbow at or above the frontal plane is where most of us humans instinctively swing (or wing) the recovery arm causing impingement, losing mobility.

I had to double check degree of motion in my last description of "scapular arc". Standing in front of mirror, arms are in front of "frontal plane" between 20-30 degrees (not 5 degrees) where you can see hands in peripheral vision.

In the comments of the article above, one in particular resonates well: "By working together with our client and getting them to dial into what they FEEL as opposed to what they think we want them to do, we start to create the range of movement that’s optimal for them, as well as the appropriate complexity of movement."

Regardless of fixed planes, as coaches, we try to use language and descriptions that helps swimmers understand, see and *feel* their ranges and limits, even if it deviates from conventional terms.

Stuart
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  #15  
Old 04-08-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35LiTdN7K48
The only strange thing is that it often goes together with a C shaped underwaterpull.
Is this an elite competitor? Doesn't she drop her elbows more than usual in elite levels?

Why is this C-shaped underwater pull strange in context?
She competes at an international level, a bit below world class. She is a sprinter.
http://www.myswimresults.com.au/Resu...77&PBOnly=True
Indeed her underwater arm action isnt textbook perfect. It looks she has plenty grip though. She has a very long skinny frame, with long arms. These long arms together with the low drag vessel seem to get enough traction even at sub optimal paddle shape.
If you are short, compact with tiny arms, you would expect to need a better paddle shape, but that reminds me of you remarks about Elly Simmonds technique, wich also wasnt textbook perfect in this regard.
Conclusion not heaving a EVF isnt a dealbreaker. A straightish arm is often enough to get by.
But she is no match for the Dutch ofcourse ha,ha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_oa...&nohtml5=False

Maybe the following C pull following an focused wide marionette arm recovery isnt that strange, the underwater arm mimics the above water part if the underwaterpart happens with less focus.
Its still in the above water mode probably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89uZ...&nohtml5=False

This style of recovery feels very sneaky and unsubstantial if you are used to a more ballistic straighter recovery connecting with the underwater arm.
The ballistic recovery needs a balancing counterkick and beause of that more core activation to keep the vessel tracking straight.
This is an energy expenditure, but feels powerful at the same time.
You can imagine this style feels very different compared to the marionette arm approach, although both could have a body/shoulder/upperarm initiation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bOtUaTxLgI
You can see the momentum of this kind of recovery often sends the arm to the midline after entry, and you have to sweep out again to steer the arm to catch position.
Its a stroke thats more like rolling in curves (feeling like a pig in the mud) instead of keeping the intentions more lineair forward-backward.
I like experimenting with the rolling in the mud style making big figure 8 arm movements (looking at the arm cycle from above) too.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-08-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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  #16  
Old 04-08-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sclim,


Maybe there's a textbook term for this curve, arc like shape that makes up each of us, but haven't found it yet.

Stuart
It's called a Ribcage.
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post

Regardless of fixed planes, as coaches, we try to use language and descriptions that helps swimmers understand, see and *feel* their ranges and limits, even if it deviates from conventional terms.

Stuart
Coaches help swimmers feel, since the coach can't do it for them. But not at the expense of using contradicting or confusing terms. There are plenty of ways to describe this without using toms that already have a purpose in PT Eval, which your lady apparently didn't know. Scapular arc is the name of an existing impingement test where the arm actually moves in a different direction than the imaginary arc you've adopted from Boomer.
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #18  
Old 04-08-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Coaches help swimmers feel, since the coach can't do it for them. But not at the expense of using contradicting or confusing terms. There are plenty of ways to describe this without using toms that already have a purpose in PT Eval, which your lady apparently didn't know. Scapular arc is the name of an existing impingement test where the arm actually moves in a different direction than the imaginary arc you've adopted from Boomer.
Have to agree with you here Suzanne. If the purpose of language is communication and the terms we use depend on the people we are talking to, that sounds like a prescription for confusion. Maybe that's exactly what we're seeing in this thread. If the medical people already have a vocabulary that can describe what we want when swimming, then the swimming people should try to use the same vocabulary. What I'm still not entirely sure of is whether or not there is a swimming message that is still not well adapted to expression with the medical vocabulary and, if so, then why.

Do medical people talk about scapular arcs? If not, then why not? Why do the swimmers need this concept and not the medical people?
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Have to agree with you here Suzanne. If the purpose of language is communication and the terms we use depend on the people we are talking to, that sounds like a prescription for confusion. Maybe that's exactly what we're seeing in this thread. If the medical people already have a vocabulary that can describe what we want when swimming, then the swimming people should try to use the same vocabulary. What I'm still not entirely sure of is whether or not there is a swimming message that is still not well adapted to expression with the medical vocabulary and, if so, then why.

Do medical people talk about scapular arcs? If not, then why not? Why do the swimmers need this concept and not the medical people?
Yes. Raising and lowering the arm in the scapular plane is called "scaption". The scapular plane changes with protraction and retraction. Lay men's terms? Squeezing, pinching, pulling back shoulder blades (retraction) vs rounding forward, hollowing the chest, pushing spine back (top of push-up) would all be protraction. Scapular Arc is a test of range of motion within the scapular plane. The action is called "scaption".
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 04-08-2016 at 04:47 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-08-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Yes. Raising and lowering the arm in the scapular plane is called "scaption". The scapular plane changes with protraction and retraction. Lay men's terms? Squeezing, pinching, pulling back shoulder blades (retraction) vs rounding forward, hollowing the chest, pushing spine back (top of push-up) would all be protraction. Scapular Arc is a test of range of motion within the scapular plane. The action is called "scaption".
Lately I've been going to PT for my right shoulder. Separated it years ago and lately the supraspinatus tendon (I think) has been hurting on that side, in particular during a butterfly recovery.

My PT has me doing a lot of the exercises you have mentioned in this thread to help the scapular muscles which stabilize the shoulder joint: wall push-ups, I's,T's,Y's and W's, rows, stuff lying on my back on a foam roll. Here's my question: All these muscles are in the shoulder blades. How then do they stabilize my shoulder joint to avoid impingement on the tendons there? Seems to me that they are in the wrong place for that. I would have thought that it's the muscles in the rotator cuff that stabilize the shoulder joint. Can you give me any insights short of taking a course in anatomy?
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