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  #1  
Old 03-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default Never leave your scapular plane

Edit: by scapular plane I roughly mean backplane.

A lot of beginning swimmers make their arm movements much more complicated than necessary.
Pulling the upperarm in front of the chest underwater, recovering the elbow behind the scapular plane during the recovery. Just keep your upperarm always in the scapular plane.( and let rotation do the rest)

Imagine the water surface as a mirrorplane and focus only on the movement the upperarm is making above the watersurface and below the watersurface.
These movements are mirrorimages.

Above water
- Scapular plane is rotated 45 degrees above water surface
- Upper arm is rotated forward in scapular plane
- Its a recovering action. Just like a upward recovering lift of a birds wing.
- Its mainly driven by snall muscles on top of the shoulderto to top of upperarm

Under water
- Scapular plane is rotated 45 degrees below water surface
- Upper arm is rotated backward in scapular plane
- Its a power action. Just like the downward body lifting push from a birds wing.
- Its mainly driven by 2 big muscles. One from top of upperarm to chest. One from top of upperarm to back.

The difference between normal wing flapping is the fact we have to move through water. Thats why we need to rotate up and down in the water. Rotate one body side down to make the wing powermovement, rotate the vessel 45 degrees up to recover your wing.

The hand and forearm are only the paddles on this rotating flying machine. Extension and finish movements above and underwater are almost the same in forward-backward direction but because they are always below the upperarm its not a mirror image of the movement relative to the watersurface.
Because there is still a power phase underwater and a recovering phase above water, the paddle has to be kept in optimal shape and braced against the upperarm underwater , and can hang relaxed under the upperarm in the recovering phase.

Keepīng everything this simple in the head helps my swimming if things get sloppy.
Hopefully it can help others too.

The whole chicken wing swimming is a questionable drill because its not really like normal swimming with weird tensions in the shoulder (a bit like finger tip drag/touch armpit drill), but just like Shinjis recovering example its more of getting the basic movement path idea of the upperarm accross.
There is already a lot of focus on the recovering part of this movement. Dont forget the powerpart.

above water upperarm movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBamlY2luoI

underwater upperarm movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u0uefufl78

Fran Crippen flapping with one arm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdRFAtNZt8

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-30-2016 at 04:18 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Just for people (like me) who have trouble figuring out what the scapular plane is, it is the plane you want to be moving your upper arm in during recovery. Here is a schematic of the scapular plane looking down at the top of the head. Your upper arm should make a 45 degree angle to the line between your shoulders.
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File Type: jpg scapular plane.jpg (26.7 KB, 58 views)
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  #3  
Old 03-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I also looked it up after writing, and the scapular plane is angled more forward than I thought. I found it was about 30 degrees angled to the frontside relative to the backplane.
I meant the backplane, the plane between front and backside, or a bit in front of that plane.
The mental picture is often that the arm circles perpendicular to this plane, while the upperarm rotates mostly up and down in this plane.
Just get a bit of this feeling in your underwaterpart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr9Wg0Trubk

I found this article, which is very much in line with TI shoulder healthcare.
Only difficult compromise is between getting optimal swim mechanics EVFaction after full horizontal extension, and minimizing shoulder trouble risks.
http://www.osmed.net/assets/Scapular...yleSummary.pdf

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-30-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2016
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The Scapular summary goes into good detail, but lacks illustration. I prefer to characterize as above and below scapular arc being we're horizontal in the water. Although often referred to as a plane, our torso/shoulders are slightly rounded or arc shape.

Recovery arm/humerus above scapular arc causes shoulder impingement and shoulder injuries (over time); humerus at or below allows full range of shoulder motion, no impingement. Illustration attached.

Stuart
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  #5  
Old 03-31-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I love discussions about shoulder movement. it's vital to use consistent terminology when doing so.

The term "arc" as it relates to scapula already has a meaning that I don't think is the same as what Stuart is referring to.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/classconnec...E76BF53F2E.jpg

however, scapular actions like squeezing them together behind you, or pushing them forward (as if you were at the top of a plank/pushup position and pushed your spine higher to the cieling) each move the scapula into a different plan.

The scapular plane is accepted to be anywhere from 30-45degrees, as this radiology diagram shows
https://lehmansbaseball.files.wordpr...scap-plane.jpg


this diagram shows internal vs external rotation of the upper arm as measured against the scapular plane:
https://johannesgijsbers.files.wordp...tation-rom.gif


These are the scapular actions that can affect recovery, stroking, or what I think stuart is referring to as a range of scapular angle due to protraction and retraction
http://www.asfyt.com/uploads/2/2/0/6...49926_orig.jpg
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2016
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Hi Suzanne,

Sorry, I'm using more Boomer language, than medical or radiology language. But I don't think it's necessary to be entirely consistent. If there are deviations in medical language to help the layperson (swimmer) understand, that seems fine.

The scapular plane use in radiology seems more about cam angle given the body's position on that imaginary plane, but I'm sure there are many more uses too. But our backs are not flat or planer, they're rounded. I do like the third illustration that shows the pivot of the humerus/upper arm as forearm rotates (sweeps) from 35 degs to 135 degs. The upper arm is not visible in this view (looking from the head down), but shows the rounded shape of the back the "scapular arc" follows.

I added the upper arm/humerus to illustrate remaining inside (or below) the scapular arc, attached below. Orthogonal views are very helpful - thanks!

Stuart
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File Type: jpg scapular_arc_top_view.jpg (24.4 KB, 34 views)
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  #7  
Old 04-06-2016
descending descending is offline
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This is one of those things people learn the hard way if they don't have someone watching over them as new swimmers. Negative shoulder angles are a recipe for impingement. Self-taught swimmers really need to get this thought ingrained early b/c often what we think we are doing and are actually doing are quite different.

I alluded to this point before, but I've never seen anyone in my swim circles over the years hurt their shoulders from a high elbow catch or shallow drafting arm or catch and pull mechanics. I've seen way too many destroy their shoulders from poor recovery mechanics. Pronounced bent elbow, slightly bent or straighter it doesn't matter, but getting the upper arm behind the scapulas is impending doom.
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  #8  
Old 04-07-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Suzanne,

Sorry, I'm using more Boomer language, than medical or radiology language. But I don't think it's necessary to be entirely consistent. If there are deviations in medical language to help the layperson (swimmer) understand, that seems fine.

The scapular plane use in radiology seems more about cam angle given the body's position on that imaginary plane, but I'm sure there are many more uses too. But our backs are not flat or planer, they're rounded. I do like the third illustration that shows the pivot of the humerus/upper arm as forearm rotates (sweeps) from 35 degs to 135 degs. The upper arm is not visible in this view (looking from the head down), but shows the rounded shape of the back the "scapular arc" follows.

I added the upper arm/humerus to illustrate remaining inside (or below) the scapular arc, attached below. Orthogonal views are very helpful - thanks!

Stuart
Now I'm a little confused. I'm familiar with standard anatomical orientation, but I was assuming from the context in your original descriptions that when you said "scapular plane" you actually meant the plane of a slice through the trunk when sliced through the long axis in an orientation that would divide the body into front and back halves (technically, the coronal plane, in anatomy-speak), a common lay approximation. But with your further description I'm not so sure any more.

In all your prior comments, when you said scapular plane were you talking about true scapular plane, or more like coronal plane?

There have been so many contributors, now I can't remember who said what...) ZT has clarified what he meant by "scapular plane" and it corresponds to what I had assumed he meant. That is, as he says, for whenever he said "scapular plane" substitute the "back plane". (= coronal plane).
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  #9  
Old 04-07-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Now I'm a little confused. I'm familiar with standard anatomical orientation, but I was assuming from the context in your original descriptions that when you said "scapular plane" you actually meant the plane of a slice through the trunk when sliced through the long axis in an orientation that would divide the body into front and back halves (technically, the coronal plane, in anatomy-speak), a common lay approximation. But with your further description I'm not so sure any more.

In all your prior comments, when you said scapular plane were you talking about true scapular plane, or more like coronal plane?

There have been so many contributors, now I can't remember who said what...) ZT has clarified what he meant by "scapular plane" and it corresponds to what I had assumed he meant. That is, as he says, for whenever he said "scapular plane" substitute the "back plane". (= coronal plane).
Which is exactly why standard anatomical terms (basic science, not technical at all) are preferred when coaches & athletes discuss technique.

(coronal plane = frontal plane I find the latter a little easier to remember...the plane that divides your front and your back)
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  #10  
Old 04-07-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
In all your prior comments, when you said scapular plane were you talking about true scapular plane, or more like coronal plane?
Hi Sclim,

I did use plane but prefer using arc, or "scapular arc" which scapular plane falls on. The coronal plane is when back and arms are on same plane analogous to laying flat with back on floor, arms extended out. In this position, you are pinching your shoulder blades (scapula) together slightly and arms are outside of the "scapula arc".

Plane is flat, no shape - our backs are rounded and each of us have a unique shape. Large males, broad shoulders, arc is bigger, whereas a petite female, narrow shoulders, a bit more rounded or smaller arc. I'm looking at extended arms, shoulders, back as a whole shape, not as individual anatomical pieces.

A good way to see and feel *your* shape is to stand facing a mirror, extend your arms out 90 degrees parallel to floor, fingers point to each at each wall, palms facing forward, move arms forward about 5 degrees until tension between shoulders goes away, neutral position. I had a PT in my last workshop who liked "scapular arc" (although it didn't fall into her standard textbook terms or 'basic science' either) and she added: "move hands/arms forward until you see fingertips in your peripheral vision, like hugging a giant cylinder".

In this forward, arc like position, If you were to draw an imaginary curve along the outside of your body from knuckles, elbow, through each shoulder blade (or each scapula) to opposite knuckles - that's the arc shape I'm referring to.

Maybe there's a textbook term for this curve, arc like shape that makes up each of us, but haven't found it yet.

Stuart
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