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  #11  
Old 08-30-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
but for most people, working on your cardio system before maxing your form isn't going to improve your swimming. we at TI know that it's form that should be optimized first before anything else. and we can spend a ton of time doing just that to get faster well before we start testing our cardio system and lactate threshold -
I see no reason to not work on both cardio and form at the same time? If the cardio system is strong you can perform multiple repeats with small form changes and accurately measure the effect of those changes.

Without swim fitness, fatigue would start to effect the results during an interval session and make it harder to determine the positive benefits of a form tweak?
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I find the tables of FINA Top Ten times interesting and inspiring:

http://www.fina.org/H2O/docs/masters...abs_LC_all.pdf



I note that nobody over the age of 100 has recorded a time for any race longer than 100M, but there are two times recorded for 1500M in the 95-99 age group,

47: 30.40 by Gus Langner USA in 1999,

and

82:25.34 by Jack Mathieson in 2012.


The time by Langner is truly amazing.
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  #13  
Old 08-30-2013
danm danm is offline
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Sorry but that is the most useless cardio test I've ever seen. What if you are a top class marathon runner but don't know how to swim? You will evaluate to 'very poor'?
if you're a top class marathon runner, you know very well what your fitness level is. and the original version of the cooper test is done by measuring how much one can run in 12 minutes, so no one would need to take a swimming test unless they wanted to mesure swimming specific fitness.

I didn't propose that general fitness should be improved before working on technique. What I was trying to propose was an initial range of potential improvement, for someone who has just started and wants a clear benchmark.

Fitness WILL improve with TI swimming, right? If that is so, why not measure by how much? The Cooper test is very well studied and it works to asses such an improvement. Of course, things like "feels easier" "is more enlightening" are important too - I am not dismissing them at all. I am looking for bliss, like everyone here ;). But they are not measurable really.
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Sorry but that is the most useless cardio test I've ever seen. What if you are a top class marathon runner but don't know how to swim? You will evaluate to 'very poor'?
2nd reply to this - as a triathlete, one thing i've seen is that although crosstraining effects in cardio system improvement do exist, each discipline also has its own cardio system characteristics. for example, the HR at which you reach lactate threshold is different for all 3 sports. thus if you train with HR ranges, you'll have to develop ranges for each sport, and thus test for each sport. testing cycling HR LT was the easiest (we tested on a computrainer) and then we added 8-10 beats for our run LT HR which was an anecdotal conversion. at the time, we could not measure swim HR very well but after i got a FINIS HR monitor, i definitely could see that my swim LT HR was different than my bike and run.

so yes given your skill in a particular sport, you could be a world class marathon runner but evaluate to poor for a variety of reasons related to unfamiliarity with that sport and the particular movement patterns and muscle activation associated with it.
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  #15  
Old 08-30-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I see no reason to not work on both cardio and form at the same time? If the cardio system is strong you can perform multiple repeats with small form changes and accurately measure the effect of those changes.

Without swim fitness, fatigue would start to effect the results during an interval session and make it harder to determine the positive benefits of a form tweak?
IMHO you are already working on both whenever you swim, even if you are only working on technique in the TI system. our training is highly neural in nature, and efficient neural responses improves your cardio system because it takes less effort to perform a movement when skilled versus unskilled.
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  #16  
Old 08-30-2013
terry terry is offline
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I haven't followed the link to read the Cooper test, but from memory I believe it's based on running performance. According to Dr Mike Joyner, head of exercise research at Mayo Clinic, running performance is determined 70% or more by fitness levels; swimmer performance is determined 70% (high skilled swimmers) to 90% (low-skilled swimmers) by economy.

So any table that Cooper suggests would be a decent reflection of endurance level in running, but not in swimming.
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  #17  
Old 08-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
I haven't followed the link to read the Cooper test, but from memory I believe it's based on running performance. According to Dr Mike Joyner, head of exercise research at Mayo Clinic, running performance is determined 70% or more by fitness levels; swimmer performance is determined 70% (high skilled swimmers) to 90% (low-skilled swimmers) by economy.

So any table that Cooper suggests would be a decent reflection of endurance level in running, but not in swimming.
I am yet to understand why they still use this test, which has consistently proven to overestimate one's vo2max.

The cooper test is aimed at estimating the vo2max, or run speed at vo2max. It is absolutely not appropriate for swimming, since it is merely appropriate for running. It uses formulas to estimate your relative vo2max out of the distance traveled over a duration which many find too long to accurately assess one's vo2max.

For assessing swim performances over 1500, the critical swim speed concept is much much better. Perform a 200m/400m test, gives you the pace one should normally be able to hold over 1500. The model is known and considered to be very reliable.
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  #18  
Old 08-30-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danm View Post
if you're a top class marathon runner, you know very well what your fitness level is. and the original version of the cooper test is done by measuring how much one can run in 12 minutes, so no one would need to take a swimming test unless they wanted to mesure swimming specific fitness.

I didn't propose that general fitness should be improved before working on technique. What I was trying to propose was an initial range of potential improvement, for someone who has just started and wants a clear benchmark.

Fitness WILL improve with TI swimming, right? If that is so, why not measure by how much? The Cooper test is very well studied and it works to asses such an improvement. Of course, things like "feels easier" "is more enlightening" are important too - I am not dismissing them at all. I am looking for bliss, like everyone here ;). But they are not measurable really.

The problem is that on land, there is a fairly linear correlation of work with speed. If I run harder, I run faster, on a somewhat linear line of relationship until I reach my max HR which correlates with my max vo2, or my aerobic capacity.

Swimming does not work the same way, and while the coooepr runnign test may be well studied, I doubt the cooper swimming test was done with the same controls...in a flume with exhaled gases being measured. i could be wrong, I suppose it's worth a quick pubmed or google scholar search to see what I can find. :)
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  #19  
Old 08-30-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I see no reason to not work on both cardio and form at the same time? If the cardio system is strong you can perform multiple repeats with small form changes and accurately measure the effect of those changes.

Without swim fitness, fatigue would start to effect the results during an interval session and make it harder to determine the positive benefits of a form tweak?
Andy, the range at which your approach will apply will vary for each person. Your skill & experience, which grows with each passing day impressively!! Allows you to undertake these experiments for longer repeats which by their nature will impart significant aerobic changes in all the systems involved.

Conversely for the fellow who started a thread earlier about breathing @ 11SPL, he has never even timed his 25yd 11SPL swim. SO is he working on cardio or form? And if the answer is both, is it appropriate for him to start timing 400m repeats or just 25s for the time being?

I know your thoughts are very clear, just posting these questions open endedly so people can see the range of skill levels represented by forum posters. While it may be appropriate for one person to work soley on decreasing 25 yd SPL from 30 to 24, it may be appropriate for another person to work on speed improvements over 500 to 1500m repeats knowing that based on their past experience they can keep their stroke length within a "reasonable' percentage of their wingspan.

The big variable argument here would be what is a reasonable minimum %age of wingspan conversion ? 40%? 50%? 65%? Should a swimmer display the ability at any speed to convert 70% of their wingspan into stroke lenght before ever working on any speed adjustments?

I think the extremes are pretty easy to clarify what will work best. It's in the middle grounds...maybe the 55-65% conversion swimmers...where is their time is best spent?
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2013
danm danm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
I haven't followed the link to read the Cooper test, but from memory I believe it's based on running performance. According to Dr Mike Joyner, head of exercise research at Mayo Clinic, running performance is determined 70% or more by fitness levels; swimmer performance is determined 70% (high skilled swimmers) to 90% (low-skilled swimmers) by economy.

So any table that Cooper suggests would be a decent reflection of endurance level in running, but not in swimming.
indeed the original cooper test is based on running. However, they developed one for swimming and I linked to the swimming specific one.
All I was saying is that the test could be used as a measure of how swimming specific fitness improves.
It is after all nothing but a measure of swimming speed, but it gives a range from "very poor" to "excellent" and it is also age-group-specific. I would consider it usefull for myself if I wasnt already at the "excellent" level for my age group. The test has versions for untrained adults and for trained athletes.

Last edited by danm : 08-30-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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