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  #11  
Old 07-05-2013
KarenE KarenE is offline
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I'm also working mostly on Lesson 3 drills for about an hour most days and am exhausted afterwards. I love the intense concentration it takes but i do think this is some of what is so tiring, in a good way.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
How does your swimming fitness compare to your running one? If you read about daily routines of elite athletes you will find that almost all of them take naps in between training sessions. I think its normal to feel sleepy after a hard session. Could it be that you are just a relatively better runner than a swimmer?
I think that my swimming fitness is better than my running fitness. So I don't think that this is an explanation. For a while I tried to make it a point to always drink enough water before swimming and also have a water bottle at the pool, and I think that this helped, but it did not entirely solve the problem. As for eating, I do eat afterwards, but being diabetic I can't really pump lots of food into me as other people might. Also, this phenomenon seems to be so wide spread that the explanation must be of a rather general nature. I am a little surprised that sport scientists or medical people haven't gone after this to gather hard data and make some better informed attempts at explanation. Or maybe they have and I don't know about it?

Suzanne, do you have any input here?
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
being in cold water does burn a ton of calories just because your body is trying to keep warm in the water in addition to fueling movement.

read about this in Tim Ferriss's book 4 Hour Body. a summary is found here:

Feel the Freezer Burn: Losing Weight by Chilling the Body

this guy cronise tried to figure out how Phelps could eat 12K calories a day and figured out it was the water cooling effect and his body attempting to keep warm that made him burn a ton more than could be accounted for by just his physical movement alone.

do you refuel after swimming? i find that if i do not eat immediately after swimming, i'm dead for the rest of the day. but if i down a recovery drink (a water bottle with ultragen), i am much much better.
The thermal issue seems to make the most sense to me of all explanations I have heard so far. Since I am skinny, this may explain why I am more vulnerable to this.

There is, however, an issue that still puzzles me: When I am done swimming and when I am done running, I usually feel great, plenty of energy. But with swimming, the fatigue shows up somewhat later, anywhere from 30 minutes to and hour. I find that, if I can nap for about 15-30 minutes, the fatigue is entirely gone. I'm not sure if this delay can be explained by thermal issues, but I would love to hear about it, if it can.
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
The thermal issue seems to make the most sense to me of all explanations I have heard so far. Since I am skinny, this may explain why I am more vulnerable to this.

There is, however, an issue that still puzzles me: When I am done swimming and when I am done running, I usually feel great, plenty of energy. But with swimming, the fatigue shows up somewhat later, anywhere from 30 minutes to and hour. I find that, if I can nap for about 15-30 minutes, the fatigue is entirely gone. I'm not sure if this delay can be explained by thermal issues, but I would love to hear about it, if it can.
do you eat/refuel after a swim + run workout?
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
do you eat/refuel after a swim + run workout?
Yes I do, but I do it the same for both, so I don't see a difference there. What I am curious about is the delay in the onset of fatigue when I swim. When I google this subject, others also seem to experience this.
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2013
azamy azamy is offline
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Hi Danny,

Let me ask you a question. When you swim do you take rests and walk out of the pool? Yes? No? According to what I have experienced most of the time when I feel extremely tired and fatigued it is because of the lack of oxygen and the build up of CO2 in the muscles during the whole swimming session. We agree that we don't get the 100% oxygen we need while we swim. I have noticed that when I take breaks, walk out of the pool and rest for a while, get enough oxygen and then swim again, I don't feel that much fatigued, instead most of the time I feel more energized!

Nutrition and refueling also plays and important role in the post work out recovery. But Hey the nap after a swimming session is deep and relaxing ;)

my 2cents
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  #17  
Old 07-08-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azamy View Post
Hi Danny,

Let me ask you a question. When you swim do you take rests and walk out of the pool? Yes? No? According to what I have experienced most of the time when I feel extremely tired and fatigued it is because of the lack of oxygen and the build up of CO2 in the muscles during the whole swimming session. We agree that we don't get the 100% oxygen we need while we swim. I have noticed that when I take breaks, walk out of the pool and rest for a while, get enough oxygen and then swim again, I don't feel that much fatigued, instead most of the time I feel more energized!

Nutrition and refueling also plays and important role in the post work out recovery. But Hey the nap after a swimming session is deep and relaxing ;)

my 2cents
Hi Azamy,

I do not take breaks like you mention above, and that could be part of an explanation. Perhaps I should explain that I posed this question more out of intellectual curiosity, rather than trying to eliminate my fatigue after swimming. I was struck by the fact that the fatigue seems to occur in swimming but not in other sports, and that its onset occurs with a delay after one gets out of the pool. Since lots of other people relate the same type of experience on the internet, it seemed to me that this might be a general type of phenomenon that was perhaps of sufficient interest that someone with a scientific background might have been interested enough in it to try to pin it down with some experimental data. If so, I haven't found any signs of such work.

Thanks to everyone, however, for their thoughts and suggestions!
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  #18  
Old 07-08-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I found this on line and it looks as though there is plenty more out there.

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012...o-sleepy_68669
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  #19  
Old 07-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default So many issues

This is fascintaing to me and that article was interesting too thanks. One point not raised was that everyone is different. It's not a question of pure/natural science.

I hit on the idea of doing a run AFTER I swam, as well as before, in order to counteract the cold/hyperthermia (I was swimming outdoors in water below 10'C). The result was injury! When we're cold i.e when there's some tiredness/shutting down of peripheral systems etc. we get insensitive and sloppy, we lose a degree of feeling/sensitivity and there's a greater risk of injury. We must address the issues with respect for our own degree of fitness, flexibility, tension etc.

People really just aren't machines so calorie calcs are only an extremely rough guide. Tension in muscles drains as much energy as muscles doing work and there's no scientific difference between useful work and useless work. We know that technique is critical to get anywhere at all in the water, no mater how much energy we burn, but our musculatare is also highly complex, and not designed/evolved to swim v. well. Muscles that generally take a back seat, or act onluy as stabilisers etc get called into new service and have little idea what they should be doing. The result is tons of energy wasted while they twitch about trying to figure it out and support the new regime being imposed on them.

I've been practising walking (!!) over the last 18 months or so, improving my balance, alignment, and orientation (for skiing). It's an unbelievably slow and complicated business, and this is at something natural, everyday, and well practised!! When I hit on something, and really focus on trying to improve it, the energy I expend rockets up, and it takes a long time for my body to get the hang of it. My muscles think "we're" going to fall over. They obey their prime directive: to preserve "us", and until the new order is understood and a new balance has been aquired they are "nervous" and "distrustful". All this consumes energy.

Muscles don't seem to me to just tense/relax, but rather seem to tense/relax along different orientations within themselves, especially if they're fixed at more than one point. There seems to be an almost infinite number of ways any crude movement can be accomplished. Unfamiliar combinations require more effort to execute as semi-reflex responses cut into new patterns.

Lastly I have to say the bio-physical advice of eating a banana to counteract the energy expended during exercise just doesn't work for me. Mr Phelps' 5 egg omelette is a bit far in the opposite direction but I do feel the benefit when I get it together to eat amply.

Anyway, just some thoughts to add into the mix.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #20  
Old 07-08-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Talvi, you are right, everyone is different, and we have to be careful about generalizing our own experience. In my case, I have the sense that swimming causes a rather steep drop in my blood pressure (which I am taking medication for) and when that happens, the low blood pressure tires me out. Needless to say, this is something that I could verify or disprove with numbers, just by measuring my blood pressure more conscientiously, but I seem to have other priorities and haven't done my homework.

I did do the measurement today and saw a steep drop as expected, but that's not enough data to build a case on... Also, does it drop more after swimming than running? Don't know, but it would be interesting to find out...
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