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  #1  
Old 08-27-2012
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Rajan
Default Hip Drive

Dear all,

Can the Hip Drive be achieved only through opposite leg kicking. Why I am asking because in TI DVD, In lesson 3 or 4th (I dont remember exactly), it is not told that you have to kick opposite leg to initiate hip drive.

For those who don't know or yet started practicing two beat kick, how can this HIP drive be achieved.

Regards


Rajan

Last edited by Rajan : 08-27-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-27-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hello Rajan

I am no expert but I think it is possible to learn the hip drive by just focusing on the hip and letting the legs follow. Just let your legs trail behind you and swing your hips from side to side and eventually the legs will find the natural movement. It is rather like punching a punch bag in boxing. If you have ever boxed you will know that you take a rather wide stance and swing your body from side to side as you punch first with the right and then with the left. The swimming equivalent of the punch is the spear, and just as the the force of the punch comes from the swing of the body, so does the force of the spear, which actually originates in the toes. Of course in swimming because the body is immersed in water there is nothing solid to push against, although the water does resist the movement of the feet. The main purpose of the feet in the two-beat kick is to balance the body, although some propulsion can be obtained if one has flexible ankles. Obviously the analogy with the punch is not perfect because the aim, in TI at least, is not to spear forcibly but to slip the hand and arm into the water as smoothly as possible avoiding splash and minimising resistance to forward movement.
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Old 08-27-2012
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Thanks Richard. I should rotate hip and slip my hand and forward in the mail slot, coming back to skate position on opposite side

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hello Rajan

I am no expert but I think it is possible to learn the hip drive by just focusing on the hip and letting the legs follow. Just let your legs trail behind you and swing your hips from side to side and eventually the legs will find the natural movement. It is rather like punching a punch bag in boxing. If you have ever boxed you will know that you take a rather wide stance and swing your body from side to side as you punch first with the right and then with the left. The swimming equivalent of the punch is the spear, and just as the the force of the punch comes from the swing of the body, so does the force of the spear, which actually originates in the toes. Of course in swimming because the body is immersed in water there is nothing solid to push against, although the water does resist the movement of the feet. The main purpose of the feet in the two-beat kick is to balance the body, although some propulsion can be obtained if one has flexible ankles. Obviously the analogy with the punch is not perfect because the aim, in TI at least, is not to spear forcibly but to slip the hand and arm into the water as smoothly as possible avoiding splash and minimising resistance to forward movement.

Last edited by Rajan : 08-27-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2012
yearn2swim yearn2swim is offline
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yearn2swim
Default Hips

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hello Rajan

I am no expert but I think it is possible to learn the hip drive by just focusing on the hip and letting the legs follow.
I agree with the hip focus. Stop thinking about the kick and try to think about your hips. With your right arm in a catch and your left arm about to spear, your left hip is higher than your right hip. Think about rotating your right hip up. Or your left hip down. It seems to vary what works for people. I think about swinging my right hip up as my left arm spears.

Initially, no thinking about the kick at all. (It's hard not to think about something which is why you focus on the hips.) After a while, you can throw in the right kick which activates the hip rotation which transfers to the left arm spear.

Mike
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Old 08-27-2012
BradMM BradMM is offline
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You saved me from having to post basically the same questions. In "extraordinary swimming for every body," Terry talks a lot about core power creating the propulsion. Huh? I guess I need to read it again but I feel I'm missing a key point. My core can't move any water by itself, it has to go through my arms and legs. I understand that this movement may not be efficient but please help me understand better.
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Old 08-27-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi BradMM

You are right that the core alone cannot provide propulsion, as you can easily demonstrate by floating in the water and trying to move forward by rocking from side to side, but you can get a more powerful pull by using the body to drive the arm and hand. apart from the boxing, throwing and golf swing analogies, all of which are imperfect because of the fact that your feet are not in contact with terra firma, one can also consider the rowing analogy, where the rower uses the weight of his body to press the oar against the water. Your arm must slip to some extent, because of the nature of water, but if you think of trying to hold it still without slipping you will get a better grip. The idea is to focus on the forward arm, which is piercing the water, and to some extent and unavoidably pushing the water forward, which we don't want to do, rather than on the rear arm and hand, which are moving the water backward. If we focus on the rear hand and arm we will probably slip or 'spin the wheels' as they say.
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Old 08-28-2012
BradMM BradMM is offline
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Thanks Richardsk,

That makes sense in that most (?) sports rely on core strength primarily and extremity strength secondarily. I'll reread and work on it.

Brad
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  #8  
Old 08-28-2012
yearn2swim yearn2swim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMM View Post
You saved me from having to post basically the same questions. In "extraordinary swimming for every body," Terry talks a lot about core power creating the propulsion. Huh? I guess I need to read it again but I feel I'm missing a key point. My core can't move any water by itself, it has to go through my arms and legs. I understand that this movement may not be efficient but please help me understand better.
You're right that just rotation of your core won't move you.

This is a bit strange - but I visualize swimming TI style as climbing a ladder in low gravity without using your legs. You could pull yourself up the ladder with just your arms and shoulders but that gets tiring after a while. In TI, you grab a rung (set the catch) and "lunge" upwards with your core rotating/unwinding to provide the thrust (the spear) so you can grab the next higher rung. Strange I know but the point is that it's the anchor of the catch plus the core power which provides propulsion.

Mike
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2012
CoachPaulB CoachPaulB is offline
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CoachPaulB
Default Energy transfer

Brad,
The pulse that we sense when WS is done in sync is a wonderful feeling. It can be illusive though, especially when we are concentrating on so many different "bits" of info. Rubbing you belly and patting your head as a land exercise is one thing but try it in the water and its a whole new experience...
The energy transfer from the tip of your left foot to the tip of your right hand, during a stroke cycle, has to travel through your core and is amplified or dampened by the condition or position of your core. It has been referred to for centuries as your Chi...or just Chi. If you have and anterior tilt in your pelvis like so many do you will be dampening the energy transfer. NO LASER. More like banana. So let me give you yet another bit of info to completely overload your circuits. If you can... just focus for one lap of the pool on firming your lower abdominal muscles ever so slightly. In Danny Dweyers "Chi Running" it is the equivalent of tucking in your sacrum to straighten the column. This is the true laser lead and when achieved, the lateral rotation of the hips is unhindered. A distinct snap in the hip, which is torque (energy supplied by gravity from High side hip) will transmit to the spearing hand and in turn move you past the opposite hand in the catch position.
You can have many idiosyncrasies in your stroke like Natlie Coughlin's windmill arm, but if your core is rock solid and in sync then you have a real foundation to work on the fine tuning of recovery, catch, spear etc.
Incidentally, your torso and legs will tend to ride higher in the water when your hips are in the neutral position.
I hope this helps
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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This article might have some relevance.

http://www.swimmingscience.net/2012/...-swimming.html
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