Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-01-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
I tried focusing on my back yesterday at the pool (and what I thought were the lats).
I focused on keeping my elbow high, letting my forearm drop, and having my back bringing my arm backward.

But when I opened an anatomy book this morning, I was suprised to see that the muscle that I engaged during the pool session (the one that felt sore today) was the bottom of the trapezius.

Any idea on how to move the load from the trapezius to the lats ?
Lats do not act in recovery. It sounds like what you did was just fine.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-01-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 121
DD_l_enclume
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Lats do not act in recovery. It sounds like what you did was just fine.

What I described was the underwater phase, not the recovery.
Or maybe you mean *recovery* as the feeling I got the next day and that lats should never get sore ?
Sorry, but I'm confused ...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-01-2011
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rio, Wisconsin
Posts: 564
westyswoods
Default Lats vs. Other Back and Shoulder Muscles

This discussion about the activation and purpose of the lats is one all should really understand. Coach Suzanne has explained it well. (THE LATS ARE ENGAGED IN THE CATCH and PULL OF THE STROKE).

In a previous post I explained the difficulties my lats have posed in my swimming. These muscle are very powerful and reach from the front of the shoulder, wrap around under the armpit to the back and traverse all the way to the butt area. Non technical terms but get the picture.

Muscles only contract in one direction, the lats shorten which is why Coach states they do not act in recovery. This brings me to the point of my first post.
Lats are limiters and compressors in the shoulder area.

The more developed and strong they are the greater the compression of the shoulder area, UNLESS these muscles are cared for. Stretch them out, elongate them and the range of motion within the shoulder joint will improve. With this comes many positives for the swimming stroke.

My biggest benefit has been a dramatic decrease in shoulder pain. Due to a very physical and manual labor life style my lats have become well developed. While trying to improve my stoke I found that after attempts to focus on elongation, streamline and moving shoulder forward would flare the shoulders up. Enter my PT and therapy.

The old saying muscles should be long and strong for swimming is so true.

One more thought, tendons and ligaments are very rarely discussed here, although these connective tissues are just as crucial to our swim stroke as muscle.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-01-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen makes a good demonstration in this (promotional) video.

She claims that relaxing the fingers and focusing on the palm of the hand as the fulcrum for your pull will more naturally engage the lats, as opposed to a closed fingered pull that encourages use of the shoulder?

Do the coaches on the site agree with her thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqsjn...eature=related
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-01-2011
swimust swimust is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 832
swimust
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen makes a good demonstration in this (promotional) video.

She claims that relaxing the fingers and focusing on the palm of the hand as the fulcrum for your pull will more naturally engage the lats, as opposed to a closed fingered pull that encourages use of the shoulder?

Do the coaches on the site agree with her thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqsjn...eature=related
Hi, :) (I will be back soon to the other great posts that were posted above yours)
palm is not used to catch water in the TI pull stage, only the forearm really works. At least thats the case in Shinji swim and I am (almost)sure its the same with Terry. Competitive swim does use the palm as far as I know, but TI doesnt. In TI the palm just keeps the linear shape of the hand. its engaged "very lightly".
now back to my real "stuff" (I should call my stuff 'nonsense' because thats what it was). follow my next posts... ;)
(and dont listen to me so much because I am just a newbie. better learn my story to avoid my (stupid?)mistakes.)
__________________
you must be a donkey before you become a dolphin.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-01-2011
swimust swimust is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 832
swimust
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
AGain, I'm thrilled with your improvement and enjoyment.

When you state shinji and Terry have angles of 75* and 80* to the sky...from which angle? Looking from the front? From the side?

The lats are engaged in the "catch" and "pull" of the stroke. The deltoid, traps and rhomboids are involved in the recovery phase. During recovery the lats are relaxed and stretching. Just before entry the lats are or should be fully stretched and ready to begin contracting.

If you have questions about Terry & Shinji's position, can you take a screen shot from your computer and draw an arrow on it? Or give a link toa video and a time from the timeline...then we can see exactly where you are referring.
Hi!
Here is a clue: http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=2805
I am surprised that someone as good as you in swimming (I am totally serious and not cynical) havent read my post on this link, added 1 and 1 and understood my problem... You are that good. Your last posts on this thread are totally correct and I thank you very much for your help.
Now I need a "special thread" (especially silly) for my story. New swimmers may benefit of it just as I am benefiting from your help. Here it is: http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=2810
"every little help helps"... Thanks!
__________________
you must be a donkey before you become a dolphin.

Last edited by swimust : 11-01-2011 at 04:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-01-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen's deltoids are suspiciously large. Is that necessary if propulsion comes from the lats?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-01-2011
swimust swimust is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 832
swimust
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
If you have questions about Terry & Shinji's position, can you take a screen shot from your computer and draw an arrow on it? Or give a link toa video and a time from the timeline...then we can see exactly where you are referring.
here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmnJnmahLw
frame time: from 53 seconds to 60 seconds into the clip. The camera is looking from the side in slow motion. after the start of each recovery the whole shoulder area (including the shoulder blade, the chest in front, everything..) is rotated from the outside towards the sky (lateral rotation) and the top of the hand ("the corner of the shoulder"?) is the highest part.
After starting today to finally focus on my forearm instead of using my wrist (how silly of me), i got that rotation myself. Its easy once the whole shoulder area is lose and relaxed. Just felt a very little twitch between the blade and the spine.
No lats involved. They are engaged exactly as you said during the pull phase only, not during recovery.
I am swimming now!
Thanks for your help, its much appreciated :)
__________________
you must be a donkey before you become a dolphin.

Last edited by swimust : 11-01-2011 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-01-2011
swimust swimust is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 832
swimust
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen makes a good demonstration in this (promotional) video.

She claims that relaxing the fingers and focusing on the palm of the hand as the fulcrum for your pull will more naturally engage the lats, as opposed to a closed fingered pull that encourages use of the shoulder?

Do the coaches on the site agree with her thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqsjn...eature=related
Just from my experience: see my post about 'swimming at last'. What she recommends was exactly what I did in the last months (instead of using the forearm) and its wrong. Shinji says to losen the wrist, not to use it. Maybe the classic TI recommends using the wrist but I doubt it.
__________________
you must be a donkey before you become a dolphin.

Last edited by swimust : 11-01-2011 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-01-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

Got to jump in for KPN here (No, I don't get paid for it) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen's deltoids are suspiciously large. Is that necessary if propulsion comes from the lats?
Have you checked her lats? ;-) She swims all four strokes, you don't get around using the deltoids when swimming all strokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
Just from my experience: see my post about 'swimming at last'. What she recommends was exactly what I did in the last months (instead of using the forearm) and its wrong. Shinji says to losen the wrist, not to use it. Maybe the classic TI recommends using the wrist but I doubt it.
I don't think she is wrong. She is not saying use the wrist instead of the forearm, but focus on the wrist instead of the palm/hand/fingers. That is how you engage the lats.
In fact - try to focus on the forearm. It is the same as focusing on the wrist.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.