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  #21  
Old 09-19-2010
aerogramma aerogramma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I wonder whether this is the result of being pushed into training for competition at a young age, before perfecting the stroke. If you assume that future Olympians are picked out at, say, age 10, I would imagine they start competing soon afterwards and a lot of their training is based on developing strength and endurance, rather than honing technique. This is certainly the impression I get from watching amateur club swimmers although I appreciate there will be better-quality coaching for the true stars.

Separately, the 'lopers' video posted above is, I think, a good example of the absurd and ignorant 'teaching' that still exists in the fragmented world of freestyle.
Mmm..."Perfecting the stroke" at 10 doesn't make much sense, your body changes and so has to change your tecnique.

It makes me quite uncomfortable to think there's a right way to swim that applies for everyone. A really good coach hones and adjusts to the natural inclinations of his/her pupil. And that is true for every teacher.
Without deviations from the norm, without the brilliance of so called weirdos that do it in a different way the world would be a much less interesting place.

TI is great method but it has not been brought to us from the lonely and empty space of the desert. There's plenty of other people out there that teach and think along lines similar to TI. Personally I've found a lot of sensible feedback from local coaches, not at all too dissimilar from TI thinking.
Teaching swimming has advanced with time, just like TI.
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  #22  
Old 09-19-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Responses in underlined italics below.

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Originally Posted by aerogramma View Post
Mmm..."Perfecting the stroke" at 10 doesn't make much sense, your body changes and so has to change your tecnique.

[i]I've dealt with this point above. As I said there, no one denies that physical differences mean people will swim in non-identical ways. But that doesn't mean good swimmers have nothing in common. The common element is a good stroke. It's what poor swimmers don't share with them.[/I]

It makes me quite uncomfortable to think there's a right way to swim that applies for everyone. A really good coach hones and adjusts to the natural inclinations of his/her pupil.

[i]Doubtless a good coach helps a pupil in whatever way possible. The question remains whether there is a propoer way to swim.[/I]

And that is true for every teacher.
Without deviations from the norm, without the brilliance of so called weirdos that do it in a different way the world would be a much less interesting place.

I don't think that is relevant to the issue at hand.

TI is great method but it has not been brought to us from the lonely and empty space of the desert. There's plenty of other people out there that teach and think along lines similar to TI.

Indeed. Could it be they are all converging on the 'right way' to swim? I suspect so.

Personally I've found a lot of sensible feedback from local coaches, not at all too dissimilar from TI thinking.
Teaching swimming has advanced with time, just like TI.

You seem to be inferring that because teaching advances, there is no end point to the evolution of swimming technique. That doesn't follow.
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  #23  
Old 09-19-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Judging technique by who wins a race is pointless as you can't control for factors such as differences in strength. The point is that technique needs to be considered in abstraction from such factors. ...
Terry mentioned a study in one of the Olympics in 2xxx, where the energy spent in the race by the different swimmers was compared. No significant difference in the energy used for the race could be found between those that made it to the final run and those who didn't.
In the 100 freestyle men's final - that one race where the most power and strenght is applied - the medal-winners used 16% less energy than the last in the race.
In other words in high class races they all have the fitness and the strength needed and the winner is the one who has the best technique.
It seems to be hard to accept that it is not possible to become better in swimming by applying more force.

Whenever human beings and their physical movements are involved there is no objectively existing perfect action, be it swimming, running or whatever. People are simply too different. You can only get an approximation to that what at a certain moment is the best this one individual could possibly achieve. Take Jason Lezak in his famous 4x100 anchor leg: this was possibly the best he ever did and might even be more that he actually could do. More because in certain situations influences like the spirit of the team, of the whole atmosphere etc can bring achievements from human beings that they cannot do in 'normal' circumstances and they might never be able to reproduce.
But if you adapt Jason Lezaks stroke and absolutely perfect it - it might not work. Because you are different.

To point your question a little bit in a different direction, Lawrence: What is your point really? Why do you insist that there must be a perfect stroke? What does is cost you when there isn't?
You seem to be almost stubbornly refusing to realize or even to accept what in fact is quite obvious.

Any agenda involved?

Last edited by haschu33 : 09-19-2010 at 07:13 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-19-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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My agenda is establishing what the right answer is.

Your logic above is flawed, by the way. It doesn't follow from the fact that the best swimmers use less energy that all Olympic competitors are equally fit. What follows, if anything, is that the best swimmers have better technique. No doubt.

If people really are too different for there to be a common stroke, why are we all learning TI? Wide tracks, head down, steep entry angle, hip drive to engage core strength as the propulsive engine, etc - these are all elements that can be justified from an engineering viewpoint and have been tested and shown to work.

Head up, over-reaching, spearing towards the centre, etc. - are these techniques that might work for some people because we are all 'so different'?

Clearly not. The mistake is to fail to draw a distinction between core principles that define good technique and individual differences in the way such principles are implemented. To deny such a distinction on the basis we are all different is to miss what is obvious.

This debate started when I asserted that symmetry is, if I have to make a guess, a component of the perfect stroke. I don't have the proof but it seems a reasonable assumption given that people are pretty symmetrical and that swimming requires the same actions to be executed by both the left and right sides of the body.

I'm surprised people find the assertion objectionable, frankly. It seems to me an obvious default assumption.

Last edited by Lawrence : 09-19-2010 at 10:11 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-19-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
... This debate started when I asserted that symmetry is, if I have to make a guess, a component of the perfect stroke. I don't have the proof but ...
So much fuzz about such a little thing.

My answer: I don't have a proof either.
When I see worldrecords being achieved by a summetrical stroke being shattered by loping strokes, and someone (CoachDaveB) tells me that he swims better with a loping stroke, that is the point where I put 'symmetrical stroke' off the list of requirements for a 'good', or 'perfect' or whatever ideal stroke.
For me this is obvious.

Sorry, don't take it personal, Lawrence, but this discussion turned into a pointless argumentation. I am out.

If you really want an answer you find it all in CoachDaveB's first post.


I just remember, in my early days in India, there was a master who said: beware of symmetry! ;-)
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  #26  
Old 09-19-2010
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
So much fuzz about such a little thing.

My answer: I don't have a proof either.
When I see world records being achieved by a symmetrical stroke being shattered by loping strokes, and someone (Coach Dave B) tells me that he swims better with a loping stroke, that is the point where I put 'symmetrical stroke' off the list of requirements for a 'good', or 'perfect' or whatever ideal stroke.
For me this is obvious.

Sorry, don't take it personal, Lawrence, but this discussion turned into a pointless argumentation. I am out.

If you really want an answer you find it all in Coach Dave B's first post.


I just remember, in my early days in India, there was a master who said: beware of symmetry! ;-)
I am in! . . .AM i in?....................nothN like changN things around..
hi guys...i like to listen to ya's and
i have swam with a MASTER SWIM TEAM! Have either of you?
in was very short lived!

i was try N to learn the Marionette (short level arm approach) then load and behold one of the coaches turned to loping his long level arm into the water!
i looked at the coach on the deck and I said look at him!

we never had any further discussion about it, but he was a lean muscular
tri in the water(as well as one of the coaches), and well
HIM AND I WERE SO TOTALLY DIFFERENT

So i haven't been back to the MASTER SWIM!
I DIDN'T LIKE SWIMMERS SWIMMIN OF MY FEET
I DIDN'T MIND THEIR STROKES BEING LOPSIDED AS MUCH AS I DIDN'T LIKE RUSH FEELIN....IN THE LANES!!!

OR ANOTHER COMMENTS ABOUT MY WEIGHT that i would lose it!
I didn't with my water exercise class, so i never got into a debate about it

but I like listenin!
not much on debating...cause i think I lose!
not really just I don't ever seem to find the perfect words to use

i really like this guy, but we probable as different as peanut butter and jelly
and even though i like both of them together...
we probable didn't have enuf in common or either go together like
peanut butter and jelly!

but i learn a lot from THE COACHES,
SWIMMERS
AND ONCE IN WHILE I LEARN
SOMETHING ABOUT ME!

P.S. OUR BODIES ARE NOT TOTALLY SYMMETRICAL
ANYONE SIDE OF THEIR FACES MATCH UP
MINE DOESN'T
DO I WISH THEY DID?
I AM NOT SURE WHICH THAT I PICK AND WANT TO STICK IT OUT WITH!

I LUV YOU GUYS & as well as my FUZZY CATS...
THEY SEEM TO LUV ME BACK!
so here to findN what Ya's want!

right now I'm onto ZUMBA on land
my body has adapted to the water too much! gills aren't something I want on my face I rather use a snorkel


but I love to dance and shake in both sides and
I don't care if I be symmetrically at all,
BUT I DO NOW WANT TO LOSE WEIGHT, and believe i can do it

so if a guru
you have to find...
I like helpN and I like SOME OF YOU
NOT ALWAYS THE GURU.................SO FIND YOURSELF AND YOUR SWIM
I HOPE I DO

P.S. EDITED BACK INTO my post instead of continue on the discussion of this issue
i only write with one hand
not both of them
and I don't feel the need to make my both sides symmetrical then
i guess

i edit a lot because i don't feel my INPUT
is worth more than yours but
i wish i did

or is it i do give respect
to the ONE who starts the thread is his ability and right to end it!
makes sense?
maybe NOT....but i am part of this and I hope MY INPUT means something IT DOES FOR ME!

SAY IT YOUR WAY
&
SWIM THE WAY
U WANT TO TOO!

DO N'T WE ALL?

the one time I had a TRI come to my class and say
you ca n't teach me!
i said YOUR RIGHT!


SOMETIMES IT BEST TO AGREE!
SOMETIMES IT THE TEACHER THAT CAN REACH 'EM.....
BUT SOMETIMES YOU "SEE" THE IS MORE TO IT
THAN JUST THE SWIMMn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJohnB View Post
The answer is simple,
there is n't a best way to swim for everyone.
There is the way that is best for you.

he is seasoned,
experienced and
speaks clear enuf
for me! BUT THEN THAT'S PAT ...AIN'T IT?

and the coach and the student has to connect, bond or MOVE ON!
DO NOT THEY?
and if the coach ca n't say it!
there are always the students that can share their thoughts! like LAWRENCE IS!
and you will get this in a class of students!
Senior Member

andreasl33 is on a distinguished road
Andreas is another swimmer I like! because he critique my video!
I respect him and his in sites.

TI got us where "we" want to be, but
ITs not for everyone and that's OK!
is not it ?

it gets harder to know what is what and what is wrong
especially when the drills change (if there are NO RULES CARVED INTO STONE)
until a guru says well NOW WE ARE ALL GOING TO DO IT THIS WAY...THEN WE MUST SAY "ok" or NOT!
so I do "see" everyOne problems with this discussions

but that's me!

Last edited by splashingpat : 09-21-2010 at 03:27 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
So much fuzz about such a little thing.

My answer: I don't have a proof either.
When I see worldrecords being achieved by a summetrical stroke being shattered by loping strokes, and someone (CoachDaveB) tells me that he swims better with a loping stroke, that is the point where I put 'symmetrical stroke' off the list of requirements for a 'good', or 'perfect' or whatever ideal stroke.
For me this is obvious.

Sorry, don't take it personal, Lawrence, but this discussion turned into a pointless argumentation. I am out.

If you really want an answer you find it all in CoachDaveB's first post.


I just remember, in my early days in India, there was a master who said: beware of symmetry! ;-)
Why would I take it personally? The issue is what the best way to swim is. I'm interested in the answer. You may find world records and Coach Dave's views conclusive. I don't see how they can be, for the reasons I've given. They stand unanswered.

It's interesting, by the way, how many people suggest biltateral breathing is superior 'because it gives you a more balanced stroke'. In other words, there appears to be a large number of people who, like me, suspect that symmetry is probably a virtue when swimming.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2010
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CoachJohnB CoachJohnB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Why would I take it personally? The issue is what the best way to swim is. I'm interested in the answer.
.
The answer is simple, there isn't a best way to swim for everyone. There is the way that is best for you.
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  #29  
Old 09-19-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Unargued assertion never convinces me.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2010
KatieK KatieK is offline
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The only way an asymetrical stroke would make a person less efficient would be if it introduced a zig zag. As long as you're not veering off to one side, it wouldn't create drag or reduce power.

However, it *would* put more stress on the body. It might increase the risk of injury, potentially shortening a swimmer's career.

There are plenty of fast swimmers out there with serious inefficiencies in their form. I know a 12-year-old boy who can swim a mile in 19:20. His whole head comes out of the water when he breathes. It doesn't slow him down because he doesn't have to breathe very often.

If that kid were to correct some of the inefficiencies in his stroke, I'm sure he would swim even faster. More importantly, he could probably reduce his training time--he's practicing four hours per day. Even if his speed didn't improve, the risk of injury and burnout would decrease.
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