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  #71  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
If you want to eliminate slowing down between strokes give up the back end
(karate chop out like butterfly and get back to tee front)

Also dont rotate too much as it takes longer to go from one side all the way to the other.

HMM. And if you dont have a strong anchor at the front (like most, not being Karlyn Pipes etc), and no backend, what do you have left?
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  #72  
Old 08-25-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Danny,
I have said this before, Terry is the most non TI like TI swimmerI can find in all the youtube TI footage on internet.
When looking at that pace footage he could almost sell SS stuff.
At the edge of front quadrant and a pretty rotary and fluient style.

ok where was that footage? Yep here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbZlw55Fes

what is Terry doing here?
Looks to me he has a little weight on catch here, but it seems most of his pressure is coming form catching his rotational inertia with his arms. He doesnt moves his shoulder so much forward together with his arm and doesnt have as much core loading/tension as a lot of elite swimmers use, which makes the weight transfer less obvious. He is also bobbing a bit from the straightish arm mechanics at the higher speeds.
His patient arm is not a motionless dead arm. Its just moving slowly to a better angle to grab water after entry with a little bit pressure under it, and increasing the pressure relatively gradually compared to other more catchup style TI swimmers.
On the whole it looks very much standard swimming style with a 2BK.


Regarding pressure under the arm, it looks to me Terry is doing his personal version of active glide, perhaps a little more weightless at his lower speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Do you agree with my description of the difference between the shown TI kraulstroke and the weight on catch stroke?
ZT, I prefer this film of Terry, because it shows his stroke from underwater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
That said, it appears to me in the link you gave above that he starts his catch earlier as his spl increases which isn't surprising.

I agree with you that Terry's stroke looks a lot like the film referred to as active glide in the link you gave above. The skill for doing this seems very difficult to me. Right now, I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch, because if I don't do this I find I am dropping my elbow. The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow. One thing at a time. I still need to work on the stroke as I understand Stuart to be describing it. Once I feel I have internalized that (which will take some time) I may start working on the subtleties that Terry seems to add on top of this, if I can figure out how he really does it.
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  #73  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
HMM. And if you dont have a strong anchor at the front (like most, not being Karlyn Pipes etc), and no backend, what do you have left?
I'am a big KPN / Marc Evans fan hence working on the fromt end, V line / wingline etc

You dont need super flexible shoulders its a tiny adduction just enough to get the elbow sort of on top, the hand and forearm articulate around the elbow inwards & outwards

inwards for the catch, outwards for the recovery

If you want i can show you a 1hr long private training session she did with an ironman triathlete where its all explained.
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  #74  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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yeah, show me that footage...

Marc Evans isnt so popular anymore,(talks too much haha), but he has some good stuff.
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  #75  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
yeah, show me that footage...

Marc Evans isnt so popular anymore,(talks too much haha), but he has some good stuff.
Haha he does rabbit on but he knows some stuff! i like his vids
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  #76  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Heres the KPN vid
its 1hr 7mins long but worth watching
the bit im on about is at 47mins +
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  #77  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Here v
https://youtu.be/DRb1QuIEH1E
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  #78  
Old 08-25-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
ZT, I prefer this film of Terry, because it shows his stroke from underwater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
That said, it appears to me in the link you gave above that he starts his catch earlier as his spl increases which isn't surprising.

I agree with you that Terry's stroke looks a lot like the film referred to as active glide in the link you gave above. The skill for doing this seems very difficult to me. Right now, I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch, because if I don't do this I find I am dropping my elbow. The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow. One thing at a time. I still need to work on the stroke as I understand Stuart to be describing it. Once I feel I have internalized that (which will take some time) I may start working on the subtleties that Terry seems to add on top of this, if I can figure out how he really does it.
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.

The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears mentally, while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder,lifted up and forward touching the jawline, with stretched out lat muscles and other muscle ties that want to pull that shoulder back into its normal place.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, releasing the shoulders lifting muscles and loading the muscles from shoulder to ribcage in a semi static manner. Just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep, and let the muscles from shoulder to ribcage do the first work in the pull, taking that whole static paddle along.

You can already practice this procedure and the relative armtiming in front of a mirror.
In my case it was exactly this timing that was more difficult than pure catchup or pure windmilling.
It needs some time to get used to it, and also requires special shoulder flexibility and local strenght to make it feel natural, which it isnt offcourse.

Still working on it everytime in the pool, veeerrrry slooooowly going better and better

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-25-2018 at 10:50 PM.
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  #79  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.
The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder braced to ribcage and touching the jawline.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, or just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep.
I knife out pinkie down and use the weight on catch to kick the elbow out (and retract the scapula nicely) then i can flip the forearm down into catch.
it goes deeper as you knife out pinkie down and deeper still when you kick the elbow out
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  #80  
Old 08-25-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
I knife out pinkie down and use the weight on catch to kick the elbow out (and retract the scapula nicely) then i can flip the forearm down into catch.
it goes deeper as you knife out pinkie down and deeper still when you kick the elbow out
This is KPN
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