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  #31  
Old 08-13-2016
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
But... what do you all mean when you say
"hold the water"?
Don't push water back, grip/hold the water as your body launches over the low-side arm. I like Boomer's language too, "create thick water or a platform which to press gently upon (not back)" with the low side arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
If I get proper 90 degree vertical catch early, I ruin every
notion of low drag. What I do?
Stop worrying about the positions of the low side arm and the "catch" - it's creating far more problems for you to solve than necessary and sending you into a tailspin of confusion. Instead focus on the position and path of the recovery arm that rebalances your vessel and driving its weight and momentum forward.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 08-13-2016 at 12:14 AM.
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  #32  
Old 08-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
But... what do you all mean when you say
"hold the water"?
Don't push water back, grip/hold the water as your body launches over the low-side arm. I like Boomer's language too, "create thick water or a platform which to press gently upon (not back)" with the low side arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
If I get proper 90 degree vertical catch early, I ruin every
notion of low drag. What I do?
Stop worrying about the positions of the low side arm and the "catch" - it's creating far more problems for you to solve than necessary and sending you into a tailspin of confusion. Instead focus on the position and path of the recovery arm that rebalances your vessel and driving its weight and momentum forward.

Stuart
I agree with Stuart regarding the intentions he describes.
In an ideal case swimming should probably feel this way.Swimming with this mental image and having the intention to make your swim feel this way can improve your actual swimming a great deal.
But to achieve the goal in reality it takes more than focus and intentions to anchor the arm or leg and hold the water.
Without the actual physical action you can imagine you are holding water, but you are swimming in your own little phantasy world.

Lets say the intentions can bring you to 50% of the desired result, the other 50% needs to be spent on actually improving the mechanics of your stroke to make your intentions come closer to reality.
Wether the described intentions and focus can bring you 25,50% or 75% forward is unknown and is different for every person.
I also agree that much focus on the detail arm actions can distract from the required more important foundations of your stroke.
I see people talk with each other in the pool, often making high elbow arm movements. Its always about the arm movement, and nobody talks about arm legs connections, balance and alignment.
Then they move on to the next lap with a spaghetti body and low legs.

But I dont believe in arm anchors that happen by itself either.
Dropped elbows are the most widespread flaw around. You just need a good paddle to make a good anchor. It doesnt get much simpler than that.
So when you have the balance, the good breathing and whole body swimming nailed down, its not a bad thing to add a good paddle to your boat.

If you compare the traction of the extreme dropped elbow rearward arm movement with the more optimal paddle shape, you see which one is more likely to give you that anchored arm feeling.
She is changing between 2 extreme underwater arm movements. An extreme dropped elbow and a very high elbow loaded with body weight. The best one could be not the best one for your shoulder. Find your personal best that still is safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zpi6N8k4kg
(by the way, dont copy her recovery and arm entry she shows in whole stroke)

At the same time, good swimmers can swim fast without a big paddle. They have a propulsive kick offcourse, but its also that with a good foundation, you can make most of a small paddle.
Closed fist swimming doesnt hinder her forward progress too much compared to open hand swimming. That doesnt mean a small paddle is better than a big one, or that its not important to optimize your paddle shape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ra4JL8Jfk

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-13-2016 at 09:42 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-13-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
She is changing between 2 extreme underwater arm movements. An extreme dropped elbow and a very high elbow loaded with body weight. The best one could be not the best one for your shoulder. Find your personal best that still is safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zpi6N8k4kg
(by the way, dont copy her recovery and arm entry she shows in whole stroke)
The girl anchors early and pulls back. Not my style, have to say.
Regarding high elbow during a catch, it is not as hard as it looks. Whole arm
has to be rotated in shoulder earlier, to have elbow looking up. When the
body rotates, elbow is in a position to bend. Voila.
I found swimmers in olympics to go as I liked it. "Gliding" to stay low dragged.
Horizontal. Some parts are overdoing an idea, but work.
My main problem right now is how to move hidden head to the air. More ba-
lanced, more I struggle. Or it is my neck getting older and older.
Since I do backstroke to my liking, it tends to be breathing, that ruins balance
and whatever. Instead of "hold the water", I imagine I glide over water layer.
Lower side glides, upper side recovers and makes a momentum. Is it the same
to the beholders? I hope. Or I look crazy as all other people in the lake this days.
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  #34  
Old 08-13-2016
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
You are right. P is faster. What it takes?
Why is it slower? Well...
I swim slower since I do it more relaxed. I spend my time
thinking and observing around the bottom of the lake/pool.
No fish. P asks you to be rude. To work. To stop thinking.
I stopped P since I had shoulder problem. TI solved it. Faster?
So far, yes. But, if I strugle, who knows.
Best regards.
You say you swim slower than P. What is your tempo? Do you know? Most P's when they are swimming and what you are viewing on youtube is at racing speed and their tempos can vary from anywhere in the .6 to .7 range and in Sun Yang's case in the 1500, .95. So what you perceive as a windmill to what your are doing is mostly the faster tempo which makes everything in mechanics appear something it is not. If you were able to slow motion their videos you would see a patient lead arm driving into the catch as the recovery fingers are entering the water.

Your other quote about the straight arm recovery being faster is not true (1% may be true) but straight arm recovery or windmill arms was disproven as faster in the 60s or 70s by Gambrel I think.

My video that Suzanne provided a link to was at a 1.20 tempo and that is slow for me. I am usually swimming anywhere from .90 to 1.02 and even at 1.02 I still have more of a patient lead arm than at .90 but even at .90 it is still there.

Trying to implement what you see Ps doing at their race pace at your much slower pace you will have a different feel for the water.

Make sure when you analyze Ps you are understanding that everything they are doing is happening at a much faster rate than what you are swimming at.
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  #35  
Old 08-13-2016
CoachBillGreentree CoachBillGreentree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
Woohoo! I recall video by Bill Boomer, with windmilling style, which I see
on olympics this days. That recovery momentum seems to be beneficial
more then I thought before.
Spite I do not use streight arm recovery, I see how it helps. I try to do the
same with angled arm and, I think, it does the same job. One just has to
change timing of everything. One has to be on the flank almost all the time.
Recovery has to include extended opposite arm. Holding the water? Well...
Personally, I do it putting hand down. Since I'm on the body side, hand points
at the angle, to the lake/pool bottom.
We all talk about catch, and have different things on our minds. For me,
the catch is when one gets perpendicular forearm and prepares to use it
as an anchor. Why would I catch the water and keep going further? I am
on some water layer and it is fine. Hand set down is my "catch", if I under-
stand correctly. Arm should not be bent, but streight. Shoulder elevated in
scapula, if possible. Head hidden. From that low drag possition, one might
build further.
Hardly wait further posts. Also, cannot say how different Terry's and mine
seeings on the subject are, and how the goal stays to be exactelly the same.
I'm not simply referring to a straight arm recover as windmilling. It also involves the leading arm starting to pull as soon as it hits water. There is no anchoring, there is patience whatsoever. There is a constant abuse of energy. Assaulting the water would be quite descriptive as well. That's the way most people are swimming. More and harder don't work when you're lacking essentials.

Watch the Olympic swimming again especially the underwater views.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/kat...hrcontext=kntv

Last edited by CoachBillGreentree : 08-13-2016 at 06:51 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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A patient catch
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHu5n6nh...y=scverschuren
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  #37  
Old 08-14-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I agree with Stuart regarding the intentions he describes.
In an ideal case swimming should probably feel this way.Swimming with this mental image and having the intention to make your swim feel this way can improve your actual swimming a great deal.
But to achieve the goal in reality it takes more than focus and intentions to anchor the arm or leg and hold the water.
Without the actual physical action you can imagine you are holding water, but you are swimming in your own little phantasy world.
Stronger focus leads to faster learning, awareness (proprioception), and nimble thinking. That's not living in a fantasy (phantasy?) world. When a swimmer finds themselves decelerating that triggers the impulse to pull to resolve stability (intentional or not), it's not because the lead arm is anchored in front, but something else is destabilizing the vessel (spine bends, hips sink) increasing drag profile. Resist seeking stability with the impulse to pull/catch early, or "P". Instead discover what is causing the imbalance and resolve. Again, that's not fantasy, just problem solving.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
But I dont believe in arm anchors that happen by itself either.
Dropped elbows are the most widespread flaw around. You just need a good paddle to make a good anchor. It doesnt get much simpler than that.
So when you have the balance, the good breathing and whole body swimming nailed down, its not a bad thing to add a good paddle to your boat.
Anchoring the low side arm doesn't happen by itself, but it is more of a consequential action of driving the recovery arm forward from the hip. However, those that focus on pulling arms and kicking legs will not be able grasp this concept. It's not about "having a good paddle" as it is learning to swim with whole body movement, not separate into an arms and legs departments. A "great paddle" that's not in a position of leverage will collapse naturally under any load, i.e. low side arm hinges/collapses at the elbow, elbow drops.

Stuart
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  #38  
Old 08-14-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think we have a different starting situation from where we are attaching a good paddle.
I am assuming a swimmer who doesnt have balance problems and is not seeking stability with the arms. He is looking for an optimal paddle and does not need to worry about the leaks in his boat anymore.
The swimmers also swims with whole body movements. The only thing that is missing is a good paddle that has good traction (hold) on the water.
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  #39  
Old 08-14-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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I will answer in one post, since it suits the best.
This morning I was on the lake, removing recent experiments and looking after
things I would report to this forum. Difinitelly I do not pull. Instead, I
rotate from hips. Balance, streamline, patient leading arm, strong the same
side leg. I get a catch when I roll to the other side and have 90 degrees
angle. Two points have to be taken: all is fine, till comes the time to
breathe. Somehow head moves from hidden position to something I still cannot
solve. Other point is to add momentum to recovery arm. So far, satisfied.
Asked zillion times. Have no sports watch and seems that people have no
nerves to calculate my times. Never mind. I swam in shallower water and
used water weed or whatever to see how I go. Satisfied again.
I do not use windmill, nor streight arm recovery. Boomer's swimmer does it,
but bent arm suits me better. I have to add more velocity to it, I think.
Thanks all, who answered to my posts. I have to make an experiment, how
much impact has hanged hand in proper position to the good outcome of today's
swimming.
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  #40  
Old 08-14-2016
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBillGreentree View Post
I'm not simply referring to a straight arm recover as windmilling. It also involves the leading arm starting to pull as soon as it hits water. There is no anchoring, there is patience whatsoever. There is a constant abuse of energy. Assaulting the water would be quite descriptive as well. That's the way most people are swimming. More and harder don't work when you're lacking essentials.

Watch the Olympic swimming again especially the underwater views.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/kat...hrcontext=kntv
I fully understand what the full stroke of windmilling is. Straight arm recovery looks more like a windmill. Anyone who has tried a somewhat new drill with USMS practices of windmill arms above and below know that there is no way you can get your arms through the water quickly. Windmilling or maybe straight arm was mentioned in the thread as being used by the sprinters in the olympics. Practically every olympic swimmer has the same underwater portion of their stroke except for the amount of time they leave the extending arm to develop a better catch and EVF.
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