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  #1  
Old 06-05-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Rajan
Default Types of Recovery 1 and Recovery 2

I am attaching two images of recovery. File name is Recovery 1 and Recovery 2. Although the angle between forearm and upper arm in both the images is 90 degree, both recoveries in the images look different from each other.

To look like image of Recovery 1 (First image, where there are two swimmers), do I have to rotate more on our side. Second they appeared stacked. Can somebody guide me ?

Regards

Rajan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Recovery 1.JPG (34.1 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg recovery 2.JPG (19.6 KB, 102 views)

Last edited by Rajan : 06-05-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2013
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CoachGeorgeRandall CoachGeorgeRandall is offline
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Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
I am attaching two images of recovery. File name is Recovery 1 and Recovery 2. Although the angle between forearm and upper arm in both the images is 90 degree, both recoveries in the images look different from each other.

To look like image of Recovery 1 (First image, where there are two swimmers), do I have to rotate more on our side. Second they appeared stacked. Can somebody guide me ?

Regards

Rajan
Hi Rajan,

Good question

The images are both from TI coaches I believe Coach Stuart Mcdougal? and Suzanne Atkinson

Both images you posted display a nice wide relaxed (arm away from the body) recovery..I don't see stacked shoulders there.
I think the difference you are seeing is that in Coach Suzanne video snapshop she's not rotated and she's not swimming. I think if you viewed her recovery arm when she's swimming the images would look close if not idenical to each other.

Her purpose of video was to put deliberate focus and explain to her audience the importance and benifits of a wide relaxed away from the body recovery. The snapsot you posted reveals that she's pretty flat (isn't rotated like she would be when swimming)

Perhaps both Coach Suzanne, and Coach Stuart will elaborate more on your question.

Keep up with the questions as a curious mind is a learning mind.

Swim Well To Be Well
Kiazen
George
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Thanks for your response. I swim more or less like with an angle coach suzane suggested. My forearm dangles below the elbow during recovery, but not like those two swimmer. What is the way of that type of recovery.


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Originally Posted by CoachGeorgeRandall View Post
Hi Rajan,

Good question

The images are both from TI coaches I believe Coach Stuart Mcdougal? and Suzanne Atkinson

Both images you posted display a nice wide relaxed (arm away from the body) recovery..I don't see stacked shoulders there.
I think the difference you are seeing is that in Coach Suzanne video snapshop she's not rotated and she's not swimming. I think if you viewed her recovery arm when she's swimming the images would look close if not idenical to each other.

Her purpose of video was to put deliberate focus and explain to her audience the importance and benifits of a wide relaxed away from the body recovery. The snapsot you posted reveals that she's pretty flat (isn't rotated like she would be when swimming)

Perhaps both Coach Suzanne, and Coach Stuart will elaborate more on your question.

Keep up with the questions as a curious mind is a learning mind.

Swim Well To Be Well
Kiazen
George
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Old 06-05-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Thanks for your response. I swim more or less like with an angle coach suzane suggested. My forearm dangles below the elbow during recovery, but not like those two swimmer. What is the way of that type of recovery.
Coach Suzanne is showing a dryland drill for imprinting proper arm swinging during recovery. This drill shows you how to move your arm with internal rotation at the shoulder and to stop you from externally rotating there upon recovery. The drill also teaches you how to relax the forearm so that you get used to having it just hang there for as long as you can, given the path of the elbow coming forward. As mentioned in another forum post, there is a limit at which you can bring the elbow forward, at which point the hand/forearm can start to come forward.

When you are swimming, if you are swinging your arm via your elbow and your lower arm is relaxed at the elbow, you will want to find a way to internally rotate at the shoulder and clear the water, with a proper body angle.

Centrifugal force of the swinging arm/elbow will cause the lower arm to start swinging out instead of being straight down. The lower arm will hang more straight down if you move the arm slowly or if you just keep it stationary.

The key concept is to swing the arm around with your lower arm totally relaxed - or, with just enough, minute amount of tension to keep it clear of the water. so after i just told you to totally relax your lower arm, the reality is that in order to clear the water, you'll probably have to engage at least a tiny bit of tension in the arm to make sure the hand clears, which results in the approximately 90 deg angle at the elbow in your other picture. Again, you want the absolute minimal amount of tension to accomplish this. So we practice going to zero tension first to teach neuromuscular control, then we bring it back a little bit so that you can perform the movement.

Body angle definitely has something to do with it. I think that if you focus on finding that right body angle where you can maintain balance, you will be able to swing with your upper arm internally rotated at the shoulder and be able to clear the water, assuming the you bend the lower arm at the elbow just a little.

At some point when your tempo rises, we say to start minimizing body angle (or else it will get harder to keep up with faster tempos) and then you'll have to potentially have a greater than 90 deg angle at the elbow to have the hand clear the water. Just don't lift the elbow so high or start cranking it towards your back to clear the water - swing the elbow wide, and use the absolute minimum tension at elbow to clear the hand of the water.

We used to practice drilling with stacked shoulders, but we don't do that any more.

Practice swimming with first, finding the proper body angle, and then try your forearm hanging vertical. I think you'll find that if you are internally rotated at the shoulder, part of your forearm/hand will be in the water. We do drill this as a way to use the contact with the water to help you figure out where your hand/forearm is, and to teach proper path of arm during recovery. You can play with this by swimming a length with elbow at surface of the water; then mid-forearm at surface; then wrist at surface; then hand at surface, then fingers at surface. Finally, you lift it a bit more and your hand is now clearing the water. But always remember to keep your arm internally rotated at the shoulder. Don't crank your elbow/arm back towards your back!
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Old 06-06-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Great Coach, great advice. Today in the pools I asked some to watch my recovery, I was told my forearm was not under the elbow , but it was more towards the side of the pool. Regards - Rajan


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
Coach Suzanne is showing a dryland drill for imprinting proper arm swinging during recovery. This drill shows you how to move your arm with internal rotation at the shoulder and to stop you from externally rotating there upon recovery. The drill also teaches you how to relax the forearm so that you get used to having it just hang there for as long as you can, given the path of the elbow coming forward. As mentioned in another forum post, there is a limit at which you can bring the elbow forward, at which point the hand/forearm can start to come forward.

When you are swimming, if you are swinging your arm via your elbow and your lower arm is relaxed at the elbow, you will want to find a way to internally rotate at the shoulder and clear the water, with a proper body angle.

Centrifugal force of the swinging arm/elbow will cause the lower arm to start swinging out instead of being straight down. The lower arm will hang more straight down if you move the arm slowly or if you just keep it stationary.

The key concept is to swing the arm around with your lower arm totally relaxed - or, with just enough, minute amount of tension to keep it clear of the water. so after i just told you to totally relax your lower arm, the reality is that in order to clear the water, you'll probably have to engage at least a tiny bit of tension in the arm to make sure the hand clears, which results in the approximately 90 deg angle at the elbow in your other picture. Again, you want the absolute minimal amount of tension to accomplish this. So we practice going to zero tension first to teach neuromuscular control, then we bring it back a little bit so that you can perform the movement.

Body angle definitely has something to do with it. I think that if you focus on finding that right body angle where you can maintain balance, you will be able to swing with your upper arm internally rotated at the shoulder and be able to clear the water, assuming the you bend the lower arm at the elbow just a little.

At some point when your tempo rises, we say to start minimizing body angle (or else it will get harder to keep up with faster tempos) and then you'll have to potentially have a greater than 90 deg angle at the elbow to have the hand clear the water. Just don't lift the elbow so high or start cranking it towards your back to clear the water - swing the elbow wide, and use the absolute minimum tension at elbow to clear the hand of the water.

We used to practice drilling with stacked shoulders, but we don't do that any more.

Practice swimming with first, finding the proper body angle, and then try your forearm hanging vertical. I think you'll find that if you are internally rotated at the shoulder, part of your forearm/hand will be in the water. We do drill this as a way to use the contact with the water to help you figure out where your hand/forearm is, and to teach proper path of arm during recovery. You can play with this by swimming a length with elbow at surface of the water; then mid-forearm at surface; then wrist at surface; then hand at surface, then fingers at surface. Finally, you lift it a bit more and your hand is now clearing the water. But always remember to keep your arm internally rotated at the shoulder. Don't crank your elbow/arm back towards your back!
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Old 06-06-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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Dear Coach,

Would you please further advice on this. My existing situation is that while I am swimming, I am very comfortable in recovery i) when elbow barely clears the surface, ii) I am comfortable when mid-forearm at the surface.

Now for getting the wrists at surface, then hand at surface, then fingers at surface, for this do I have to rotate more to my side

2) Does TI not recommend now circling the elbow during recovery ? I am asking this because in Swing, we move the elbow toward the side of the pool, while circling of elbow requires elbow to move towards the ceiling.


Regards

Rajan

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
You can play with this by swimming a length with elbow at surface of the water; then mid-forearm at surface; then wrist at surface; then hand at surface, then fingers at surface. Finally, you lift it a bit more and your hand is now clearing the water. But always remember to keep your arm internally rotated at the shoulder. Don't crank your elbow/arm back towards your back!

Last edited by Rajan : 06-06-2013 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 06-06-2013
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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When the elbow is just at the surface of the water, and then the mid-arm at water level, I find that this is very difficult to move forward. There is a great deal of water pressure, or so it seems. Is this something I just have to work thru or am I doing something wrong?

Sherry

Also would it be possible for some knowing person to post a dryland video of this elbow leading? A picture is worth a thousand words

Last edited by jenson1a : 06-06-2013 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Want to add something
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Old 06-06-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
Dear Coach,

Would you please further advice on this. My existing situation is that while I am swimming, I am very comfortable in recovery i) when elbow barely clears the surface, ii) I am comfortable when mid-forearm at the surface.

Now for getting the wrists at surface, then hand at surface, then fingers at surface, for this do I have to rotate more to my side
You may have to adjust your body rotation slightly, but generally you should find your balance point on a given angle and hold that angle, while the arm recovers. Thus, the arm is what is moving, not the body, in order to clear the water, or place the elbow/forearm/hand/fingers at the water surface for a drill.

My sense would be that you will have to move the arm minimally at the shoulder, but more bending at the elbow to obtain the desired effect. As you discovered with your friend observing, your lower arm isn't vertical when you recover - the important thing is that it's relaxed and not stiff, and your elbow is leading the arm for as long as possible, before the hand comes forward. So keep the elbow swinging around, and then adjust the forearm to raise/lower the height of the hand relative to the water - and also be aware that most likely your elbow is also moving up or down a bit to get your desired effect.

But all this talk about the minutae of the movement is also not necessarily good - some people want to get into the details of each muscle and what it does and i think this can lead to confusion and even improper movement as you flex each individual muscle. Movement is more natural than that, and involves chains of muscles working in concert - your body knows what to do and don't over think it! I would instead, just have the focal point of swinging the elbow around and let your body just do the right thing in order to have the hand clear the water, or be in the water at the desired depth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
2) Does TI not recommend now circling the elbow during recovery ? I am asking this because in Swing, we move the elbow toward the side of the pool, while circling of elbow requires elbow to move towards the ceiling.
Circling vs. swinging vs. other?

First, TI uses focal points to help teach certain concepts. As a coach, we develop a whole repetoire of focal points to get a student to do a certain movement. the problem is, these focal points should maybe be called "vocal points" also because we communicate them verbally (usually - sometimes we also demonstrate visually but almost never exclusively without audio).

when we try to describe to you in words to do something, the challenge is in the interpretation of the listener on what the coach actually meant in terms of movement. So sometimes if one focal (vocal) point doesn't work with a student, we try another one which teaches the same thing but just stated in a different way. this can elicit a different and sometimes better reaction because the person somehow translated it better in their head to physical movement. Sometimes we have to use 3-4 different focal points for the same movement to finally get the desired result. It doesn't matter that it took 1, 3, 10 focal points to get there - we just had to find what would work with this particular person.

However, focal (vocal) points can sometimes have downsides dependent on the listener. With circling, if the elbow is circling on the correct path, then the arm is lifted out of the water at the beginning of the circle back at the hip, circles wide and up and over the water and back down at the end of the circle at the head. so it can work. However, circling can also be interpreted as a tight circle, in which the elbow can be very close or touching the body and then it drives the shoulder into external rotation because the elbow is now circling tight against the body from back to forwards. This would be an undesirable interpretation.

So we moved to swinging the elbow wide which seems to have a more consistent positive interpretation of recovery.
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
When the elbow is just at the surface of the water, and then the mid-arm at water level, I find that this is very difficult to move forward. There is a great deal of water pressure, or so it seems. Is this something I just have to work thru or am I doing something wrong?
yes when your recovering arm is in the water coming forward, there is drag generated by the arm moving through the water. that is of course why we swim freestyle with the arm recovering above water.

however, there could be a few reasons why you're having a hard time moving forward- some that come to mind are:

1. generating enough propulsion with the stroking arm and coordination of the 2BK

2. you may be losing your body angle as you attempt an unfamiliar recovery - you may be dropping to flat as you recover and this creates drag.

3. you may be moving the arm forward in the water with some force, which not only creates drag but also force towards to resist your forward motion. but this force should get lower as the arm moves higher out of the water (ie. forearm at surface, wrist at surface, etc.) because less of the arm is there to produce drag.

can you post a video of you swimming with your elbow at the surface of the water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Also would it be possible for some knowing person to post a dryland video of this elbow leading? A picture is worth a thousand words
I will try to do this soon. I keep wanting to do it and now I have a good reason to do it and it seems to be a popular request!
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Old 06-06-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post

But all this talk about the minutae of the movement is also not necessarily good - some people want to get into the details of each muscle and what it does and i think this can lead to confusion and even improper movement as you flex each individual muscle. Movement is more natural than that, and involves chains of muscles working in concert - your body knows what to do and don't over think it! I would instead, just have the focal point of swinging the elbow around and let your body just do the right thing in order to have the hand clear the water, or be in the water at the desired depth.
First of all I'm flattered to be the topic of discussion at least in part. In the video you took a snapshot of, I was showing two very different movements of the elbow to one of my swimmers. At the very beginning of that video I demonstrate a position where lifting the elbow behind and up creates a locked shoulder. If you try it, you 'll find it feels a certain way. Swinging the elbow away (or even drawing a circle) feels a DIFFERENT way. The exact angles & positions in my demonstration are not important...go back to the beginning to see the two very dramatic ways to move the elbow. Move it more like the second way.

everyones exact position will be different.
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