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  #71  
Old 05-10-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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That is your perception based on your pulling filters as if the pulling arm is driving the high-side arm in. This is a drill at slow speed to rehearse the high-side impulse vaulting over the low-side arm. The high side arm is driving rotation and forward momentum as the body vaults *over* low-side arm. As speed increases in freestyle the vault happens later closer to front quadrant stroke timing.

I think Boomer's restart drill is good, connecting momentum of high-side swinging arm to the pelvis, or arm throw from the pelvis in its rhythm cycle. I use Boomer's drill to demonstrate how far the body can move forward with a single arm throw or swing with *no* pulling arm. But - using the single arm fly drill is far better. The single arm fly releases tension in the shoulder, as well as feeling/creating momentum of the swing and weight of high-side arm without the vaulting over the low-side arm. Swimmers discover an achievable method to access external forces of gravity and momentum with whole body coordination, one they can more easily integrate into their freestyle.

Those that are fixated on the pulling arm, impulse to pull, and/or their income based on catching/pulling videos/books they're peddling, they will find a way to use Boomer's words and drill(s) to support their narrative for obvious reasons.

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #72  
Old 05-10-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Swam for an hour, continuous open water, tonight. Based on recent discussion on this thread, I really tried to focus on the momentum of the recovering/spearing arm pulling the body forward, and nothing else.

I will make this the focus of my swimming for the next week or so and see what happens. Tonight I noticed a few things:

1. More hip rotation.

2. A "swinging" rhythm to the stroke that felt a little new.

3. A more compact kick, with toes brushing the other foot when kicking. This seemed to produce noticeably less drag.

4. It still takes concentration to wait for the moment to kick (which for me right now is the moment the underwater arm passes the head/shoulder). When I wait long enough, the connection from spear to core to hips is very smooth and strong.

5. I really felt like I was "throwing" my arm forward, with no loss of momentum at entry.

6. Less tendency for a dropped elbow on left arm, and fewer bubbles as the hand moved back.

7. Low effort (but then I wasn't trying to go fast, either). I found myself exhaling through the nose instead of mouth as I do normally, and still going 4-5 strokes between breaths. I plan to continue the nose breathing, seemed relaxing.

So, overall, this seems like a positive focal point for me. Thanks, Coach Stuart (again).

I think my underwater arm is still doing all the things I talked about earlier in this thread, but I just wasn't putting my attention there tonight. Based on Coach Stuart's comments here, that's probably a good thing. It's not that those things aren't happening, it's just that they shouldn't be the focus. Keep the focus on the momentum of the recovering/spearing arm, and the rest will follow.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with a solid week of paying attention to the high side arm.
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  #73  
Old 05-11-2018
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Great to hear Tom. "Power from the Pelvis!" (we're getting that printed on our team tees) and accessing external forces of gravity and momentum are an awesome thing in all sports

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #74  
Old 05-11-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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I have been following this exchange with deep fascination. My initial question was dispatched with quite quickly -- my understanding of the expert consensus is that the freak anatomy/young indestructible Olympic swimmers who can actually get their forearms vertical early in the cycle should indeed maximize their range of motion to do so and to efficiently move this vertical forearm backwards relative to their forward progression (or to anchor in the water as the rest of the body vaults over). But those older and less flexible swimmers can still get a very efficient catch and anchor by feeling for heavy water and learning to get a non-slipping anchor, even if the forearm is not vertical.

i.e. Verticality per se (or perpendicularity either) doesn't really matter that much.

The discussion then has morphed into what seems to be much more important (and I don't mind at all, because it has been so informative) -- not pulling so much as anchoring and vaulting effortlessly over the anchor by some sort of hip driven momentum transfer to the recovering arm...the exact agreement between contributors seems to be in limbo on exactly what is happening during this action... but there is enough description of what it feels like subjectively to the swimmer that I think I get the idea of what to feel for.
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  #75  
Old 05-11-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Tom, when you noticed

1) More hip rotation

what exactly do you mean? In the context of what CoachStuart was talking about did you mean that the rotating power seemed to come from a hip drive? And this momentum was transmitted to the outwardly swinging recovering arm and eventually to the whole forward recovery of the arm and mail-slot entry and spear. Or did you mean that the hip was actually rotation more than the shoulders (which would mean, I would think, that there was some uncoupling, meaning the intervening section of trunk torqued passively to allow less shoulder rotation. Or possibly the shoulders rotated as much but slightly out of phase with the hip rotation).
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  #76  
Old 05-11-2018
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
not pulling so much as anchoring and vaulting effortlessly over the anchor by some sort of hip driven momentum transfer to the recovering arm...the exact agreement between contributors seems to be in limbo on exactly what is happening during this action
It will always be in limbo, since people want different things. :)
I found this vertical forearm to be important. Spite inner intention to pull,
I fight it and do not pull. I wait right time to anchor.
The main point is WHEN to anchor. That differs in our posts.
Best regards.
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  #77  
Old 05-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Opening & Closing.......

Do we open the back at the beginning of recovery and close the back / shoulders (roll in) towards entry?

I got it form the shaw method video where he talks about opening the back and closing up for entry.

Played about with it in the pool yesterday there is something in it, i certainly didnt enjoy staying "open" all the way to entry!
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  #78  
Old 05-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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try it dryland with the swinging recovery
At the start you open up the back
and towards the end you turtle in making catch and spear.
Seems to give a good catch
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  #79  
Old 05-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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keeps the arms well inside the scapular plane too (once above shoulder height)
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  #80  
Old 05-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Shaw method opening & closing for info:

https://youtu.be/Ks9CWnBGSuM
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