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  #221  
Old 02-19-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your quick reply. I think I agree with everything you said. However, I do see major differences between Shinji's swimming technique and Shelly Ripples, and these differences go beyond the straight arm vs. marionette recovery.

The hesitation many swimmers have up front before spearing (including myself, although I try to avoid this) usually comes from waiting for the catch before spearing forward. One simple cure for this is to spear deeper and wider, which enables a quicker catch.

But the main point I was trying to make is that exploiting the momentum of the recovery arm is dependent on stroke rate. The faster you stroke, the easier it becomes to do this.
Hi Danny,

Point taken and agree.

Re: Hesitation. Stop waiting for catch. Instead let the spearing arm continue its journey to forward extension without decelerating at entry. Allow the low side arm to move back naturally and don't think about the catch or shape of catch. And sounds like you can pick up tempo at bit too.

Re: Shelly and Shiji. Agreed too. Shinji slower tempo 50spm, more rotation (actually he's at max rotation), stroke starts and finishes at forward extension, sending recovery/spearing arm forward in a smooth continuous motion. Shelly, faster tempo at 60spm, less rotation, front quadrant, sending arm forward, no hesitation. One think I try to do is mask out the position of forearm and look only at upper arm (humerus) and shoulder. Both shinji and Shelly upper arm is below frontal plane (back plane) and shoulder is soft and relaxed. Momentum is carrying recovery forward, not with a lifting, tense shoulder.

Stuart
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  #222  
Old 02-19-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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a dryland example which sort of is simular to perpetual freestyle, with the weightshift etc timed right.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND3AiXq1aS4
working with gravity instead of against it?

At low strokerates this (making use of) resonance can match with the roll frequency from the weight of the arm.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-19-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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  #223  
Old 02-19-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Yes, exactly. I like to think of this as resonance in a pendulum. If you hit it at the right time, you reinforce the motion, but at the wrong time you damp it. In swimming the problem is more complicated because you want to stay aligned with your direction of motion while you are doing this, but the principles are all the same. If you think of the pendulum as soft and flexible instead of rigid, then what is needed is both timing and core stiffness in the pendulum to reinforce the motion. All metaphors which may mean nothing to people who haven't tried to do the correct motion. Fortunately we learn motion mostly by instinct and feeling (even old people) so these metaphors have a chance of pointing us in the right direction.
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  #224  
Old 02-20-2017
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Regarding Bill Boomer video from very first post.

Actually, it works, and works like a charm. I would say I changed few
details:

1. leading arm should be in inner rotation, to avoid to cross mid-line.
Further, it helps to get proper anchor lately. There should be no push or
pull of any kind. When that anchor is set, one has to slowly lean on it
with whole body, jumping over.

2. I use 2bk only. Why? Recovery arm and that kick should be at the
same time to start propel and come to an anchor as the final part of
propulsion. Recovery arm and the hip have to be connected, just as
Boomer said. One might do otherwise, but this is better, for me.

3. recovery arm set straight could be a problem. I recall video showing
Florent Manaudou, doing exactly that. In my case, it is fine, but I feel
a bit of strain in a shoulder. I have to bend an arm and let elbow to lead.
It was not good, until I forgot everything and just said to myself: "open
an armpit and let it go". That solved it all.

Previous post pointed at non continual flow. Well, correct, but human just
cannot swim like a boat. First step is recovery + kick. Second step is an
anchor. They together make it flow to my satisfaction.

All Boomer ideas are, for me, working even better in back stroke. Straight
recovery arm, anchor. I just added a flap of the hand at the end of anchor
phase.

My point of view.

Last edited by fooboo : 02-20-2017 at 04:57 AM.
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  #225  
Old 02-20-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Do you agree you have the low side arm about in an anchored positon, so not pointing forward when the recovery arm comes over Fooboo?
In my view it works best if the armtiming is halfway between catchup and kayak style.
In backstroke you are close to kayaktiming, where ballistic recovery is most effective,
I do agree the acceleration the recovery arm finds a reaction force in the opposite leg , so in my perception in the kick, others may say its connected to the hip.
This depends how much pure kickdriven or upperbody/coredriven your stroke is.
Is Janet Evans an upperbody swimmer or a kick driven swimmer? Its al working together and she also has some rection force
on the legs. Its more a sort of autonatic 2bk that happens when you drive the arm with the upperbody from the hips to shoulders and not really lock the hips through the kick.

If you compare Janet Evans straight arm recovery at 100 strokes/min with Shinjis compact revovery at 50 strokes/min the difference in kinetic energy stored in the arm is almost a factor 10, so a TI swimmer has little advantage of the technique.
I agree with Stuart a staight arm can give a certain idea how it could work , and keep this feeling while letting the arm just hang at a low strokerate.
The strokerate detirmines now how much the hanging arm is swung upward automatically by rotation.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-20-2017 at 06:36 AM.
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  #226  
Old 02-20-2017
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Do you agree you have the low side arm about in an anchored positon, so not pointing forward when the recovery arm comes over Fooboo?
For me, it is still extended and in inner rotation. I know what you are talking
about. I just think different. I let recovery arm go with the same time kick.
It moves me and I could get an anchor.
Quote:
In backstroke you are close to kayaktiming, where ballistic recovery is most effective
I also keep leading arm patient in BS. I better do it in BS, since shoulders are
not in strain. I enter the water and keep rolling to fetch forward. It helps
rotation and rotation helps forward movement.
Quote:
I agree with Stuart a staight arm can give a certain idea how it could work , and keep this feeling while letting the arm just hang at a low strokerate.
I do long stroke and it is twice as people around, sometimes even 3 times
longer. I keep drag low as possible. Shoulder is close to the face nor per se,
but since I rotate. Then it comes in proximity.
I might be wrong of all this, for sure.
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  #227  
Old 02-20-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Stuart,
After reading your and Fooboo’s comments, I went back to try Boomer’s advice again today. This time things went somewhat better. When I focused on not slowing down my arm/shoulder before entry up front, I found that the TT pace of 1.4 s I had been using was too slow, so I started inching it up until I found a comfort zone at about 1.32 s. That is where I wound up doing most of my 300 m intervals today. In keeping with what Fooboo said, I didn’t worry about forming a catch on the low side before spearing forward, I just kept the low side arm in inner rotation as the high side went forward. It seemed to work well. The times I needed for my 300 m intervals didn’t really change much with this new strategy, and since my time per stroke decreased, I infer that my DPS also decreased somewhat. Even so, the result was very comfortable and relaxing, and I intentionally avoided counting strokes because I didn’t want to feel trapped by that constraint.

So I will continue swimming this way for a while to see what happens. I may play around with the TT settings, but I would like to see if my SPL will drop back down after I have been doing this for a while.
Thanks, as always, for your help!
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  #228  
Old 02-21-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Danny,

That's good to hear and you are welcome, happy to help. Any hesitations, deceleration, "hitches" at hip or at entry, unnecessary movements in recovery arm eats up time. 1.4 tempo is a tempo used for developing balance, not necessarily for continuous laps of freestyle. 1.3 tempo much better.

I recommend dropping down to .9 tempo (or faster) in increments of .1 secs to help clean up those extra movements and hitches that are eating up time, i.e. 50y @ 1.3, 50y 1.2, 50y 1.1, 50y 1.0, 50y .90. Don't be too concerned with SL, only hold a single focus and hang on to the faster tempos as best you can. Then come back up (slowing tempo), 50y .95, 50y 1.0, 50y 1.05, ... and keep climbing until you are back into your green-zone stroke length or SPL. I believe you will discover where 1.2 was uncomfortably fast going down (to faster tempos), coming back up (to slow tempos) 1.2 will feel much more comfortable and possibly sustainable. The quicker tempos, although not currently sustainable, help clean up those hesitations and added recovery movements that are eating up time and triggering imbalance.

In any case, don't fear pushing outside your comfort zone (faster or slower) tempos. This is where you learn most and are in continuous improvement - kaizen! :-)

Stuart
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  #229  
Old 02-21-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Stuart,
Years ago I was much more willing to push my comfort zone. These days my biggest fear is falling asleep at work after swimming :o)
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  #230  
Old 02-21-2017
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Haaa! Ok - fair enough Danny. Sure don't want you nodding off at work. But I wish naps were mandatory at work, especially after lunch :-)

Try to swim between tempos of 1.25 and 1.35, that will still help cleanup up some hesitation and/or added movements. Slowly push a little faster to 1.2 - 1.3.

Stuart
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