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  #21  
Old 08-11-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Ron,

Quote:
Werner,
I believe that you and CoachSuzanne are in agreement that TI does not insist lead hand stays patient until other hand spears. Part of the reason I did the experiment is that I thought I was supposed to be keeping that lead hand patient.
... fine, so I'm not in bad company...

Maybe you can change your thought from "patient lead hand" a little more to "patient lead elbow" and give your hand/lower arm the chance to flow (with your swim speed) into the catch without producing any drag... But I'm sure the threshold from P to TI will vanish more and more...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2016
terry terry is offline
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I'm not clear on what "P timing" is and how it differs from what we teach, but I think it's important to understand we teach consistent mechanics with variable stroke timing.

The consistent mechanics include:
1) Hand below body line at catch -- because this effortlessly lifts legs toward the surface, reducing drag, turbulence, and effort.
2) Hand and arm positioned so that initial pressure is toward the rear--so resultant force moves YOU forward.
3) When you begin press, apply pressure with patience, care and precision to ensure that your pressure converts at a high level into locomotion--not just commotion. I.E. Water molecules remain still, while you move forward.

The variable stroke timing occurs through:
1) The proper--and proven most successful--learning process for swimming the TI way includes a period, usually 2 to 6 months, for learning and imprinting foundational skills, before progressing to advanced or exacting skills. Among the skills we put into the Mastery category is Catch-and-Press. During the foundation building phase we encourage developing TI swimmers to spend several months focused on HOLD (your place) with the lead hand, rather than actively pressing back. This allows time to unlearn 'ripping the hand" heedlessly through the water as Suzanne put it. It also promotes a highly integrated 'core-driven' (as opposed to shoulder-driven) stroke. This tends to promote a very patient lead hand. In fact, among the key Focal Points is to have lead hand be still for a moment after extension. I went through this myself and in retrospect it was invaluable in developing a stroke that remained effective as I advanced stroke timing later.
2) In the next phase of development, we strongly recommend stroke timing adjustments be made with pinpoint precision using the left button on the Tempo Trainer.

Finally, I still practice HOLD at least 50% of the time. Doing so keeps my stroke effective when I'm in the final 100m of a 1.5k to 5k OW race and am shoulder to shoulder with someone else, and pushing to squeeze out whatever speed my body is capable of.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think a lot of people confuse holding water with holding the spearing arm outstretched until the other one enters.
Then you only have a fraction of a second to do:

Quote:
1) Hand below body line at catch -- because this effortlessly lifts legs toward the surface, reducing drag, turbulence, and effort.
2) Hand and arm positioned so that initial pressure is toward the rear--so resultant force moves YOU forward.
3) When you begin press, apply pressure with patience, care and precision to ensure that your pressure converts at a high level into locomotion--not just commotion. I.E. Water molecules remain still, while you move forward.
Thats too much for the time thats available, so its hurry hurry to get that arm back in time with the rest of the body, causing exactly the ripping effect you try to avoid.
Jumping on a moving train is difficult from a standstill position.
From all the male TI coaches Terry has about the least dead extended arm time in his stroke.
Its always moving. From perhaps a very short stop, to slow, to fast.Thats the opposite of stopping long and ripping to make up lost time.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-11-2016 at 06:14 PM.
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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I learned a lot from the replies on this thread. I literally thought that patient lead hand waited for the other spearing hand. I now understand that the patience is about getting to catch position, not about how long you patiently wait prior to ripping to the catch. I patiently catch in what I was calling P and I patiently wait but impatiently catch in my messed up version of TI.

I really appreciate the help.

Ron
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2016
terry terry is offline
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None of us want you to stop long. When we have people work on the 'moment of stillness' Focal Point for lead hand; it's a small fraction of a second.

It also allows other hand to be poised above Mail Slot at same time.
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  #26  
Old 08-11-2016
CoachBillGreentree CoachBillGreentree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Bear View Post
I learned a lot from the replies on this thread. I literally thought that patient lead hand waited for the other spearing hand. I now understand that the patience is about getting to catch position, not about how long you patiently wait prior to ripping to the catch. I patiently catch in what I was calling P and I patiently wait but impatiently catch in my messed up version of TI.

I really appreciate the help.

Ron
None of us want you to be doing "catch up' drills. It just adds additional bad habits and reinforces old ones. Watch the video of Terry and Todd that Coach Suzanne linked a page or two ago and pause when one of their recovering arms is just touching the water or almost doing so. If you're using an app that allows it, move it forward frame by frame and watch the switch.

Emphasizing a patient lead arm is necessary when trying to unlearn counterproductive habits. I spent most of my life flying airplanes, from single engine trainers to 850,000 lbs behemoths. Much of the windmill style swimming you see in far too many swimmers can be likened to a twin engine aircraft that has its propellers out of "sync". Yes, it'll get you where you're going but it'll be noisy, far less efficient, cost more fuel and be slower than you could otherwise be.

Practicing a proper patient lead arm and switch allows both of your propellers to work together in an efficient manner while decreasing effort and fuel used. That's a good thing while swimming.

Good luck with your continued swimming evolution.

Aloha.
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  #27  
Old 08-12-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBillGreentree View Post
Much of the windmill style swimming you see in far too many swimmers can be likened to a twin engine aircraft that has its propellers out of "sync".
Woohoo! I recall video by Bill Boomer, with windmilling style, which I see
on olympics this days. That recovery momentum seems to be beneficial
more then I thought before.
Spite I do not use streight arm recovery, I see how it helps. I try to do the
same with angled arm and, I think, it does the same job. One just has to
change timing of everything. One has to be on the flank almost all the time.
Recovery has to include extended opposite arm. Holding the water? Well...
Personally, I do it putting hand down. Since I'm on the body side, hand points
at the angle, to the lake/pool bottom.
We all talk about catch, and have different things on our minds. For me,
the catch is when one gets perpendicular forearm and prepares to use it
as an anchor. Why would I catch the water and keep going further? I am
on some water layer and it is fine. Hand set down is my "catch", if I under-
stand correctly. Arm should not be bent, but streight. Shoulder elevated in
scapula, if possible. Head hidden. From that low drag possition, one might
build further.
Hardly wait further posts. Also, cannot say how different Terry's and mine
seeings on the subject are, and how the goal stays to be exactelly the same.

Last edited by fooboo : 08-12-2016 at 04:29 AM.
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I've ready a few things about what people are seeing in olympic swimmers. Oddly, it doesn't match what I am seeing in the same swimmers.

Some prominent things I notice...
-The incredible quiet & still ness that occurse underwater. Not that there is no movement, but there is minimal movement...just enough to get it done
-Glide/stillness out front. EVERY swimmer in every stroke enters and pauses in front...there is a moment or more of stillness. Maybe 1 swimmer in every 3-4 heats moves through this moment without pausing.
-Many cases of the slowest tempo being the fastest swimmer, especially n the breaststroke
-At least one case of a single kick fly that no one commented on in the mens 200 fly prelim, 1st heat winner
-every swimmer in every stroke swims on tracks...arms are parallel to the direction of travel with not only no crossover, but nothing even close to crossover. Arms dead parallel.
-Streamlining is prominent in every stroke as well.
-arm entries in freestyle...all of them spear and extend forward underwater, and all of them have a full extension up front accompanied by the pause. Their extension occurs under water not above. No one does not extend, but many recreationals wimmers lack the extension.
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
Woohoo! I recall video by Bill Boomer, with windmilling style, which I see
on olympics this days. That recovery momentum seems to be beneficial
more then I thought before.
Hi Fooboo,

You are correct about the momentum of recovery arm, but you're a bit lost in windmilling, which it's not. The "TI and Professional catch" (as described by Ron Bear) is not binary, and you certainly outline the near infinite number of positions and possibilities the low side arm can be in from extension to catch to rotation and kick, see: post #63 But that is the problem that most fall victim to, controlling timing from the outside in and trying to make it an "either - or" solution.

I find those that go into too much detail and complexity in explanation, don't have a solid grasp of what's happening and are mostly confused; although their intentions are good.

Suzanne and Terry noted catch timing most simply and succinctly, "When you begin press, apply pressure with patience, care and precision to ensure that your pressure converts at a high level into locomotion--not just commotion". In short resist the impulse to pull and moving water back, use minimal movement holding as much water as possible. Allow the timing of the limbs to happen naturally from the inside out based on height, skill and rate of turnover.

Stuart
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
I find those that go into too much detail and complexity in explanation, don't have a solid grasp of what's happening and are mostly confused; although their intentions are good.
But we do like to think about it. It is a part of the game. We are all in for
thinking about. Endelessly.
Quote:
resist the impulse to pull and moving water back, use minimal movement holding as much water as possible. Allow the timing of the limbs to happen naturally from the inside out based on height, skill and rate of turnover.
That is my question in every post. When, when do you all get a catch?
I never pull. As in a post above, about olympics and stillness underwater,
I tend to do almost nothing. But... what do you all mean when you say
"hold the water"? If I get proper 90 degree vertical catch early, I ruin every
notion of low drag. What I do? I extend arm, set hand down and wait for
recovery of the ather arm. Armpit is open as shoulder is extended. I want
to be in the most optimal low drag position as long as I can. When I rotate
opposite, my arm stays extended and I do not catch anything. I do it, since,
going other flank, I may keep an elbow high and get late vertical forearm
absolutelly vertical. Then, only then I run muscles to let that vertical forearm
stay in place. I might be all wrong!
Regarding all this, swimming backstroke, I do all parts just as Boomer
wants his swimmer to do. On flank, heavy recovery, catch. Long time I try
to just turn on the other side and do the same, but it is not the same. Without
furtehr thinkering, I could swim faster backstroke, if I'd like. It proves me
I'm correct. Just want to do the same in freestyle.
Yes, please, make post as long as you could. I like to read everything on this
crucial subject.
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