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  #1  
Old 11-17-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default Fixing the grip

Hello,

Ron's posts in "How to integrate..." lead me opening a new thread about the grip in water. Sure (myself) adding power is not the right way. Hope I'll get some hints here how to add.

Maybe some you know my problem (well, it's only one of many...). I'm, a slow stroker (comfortable from TT 1.4-1.7). There is a minimal (felt) arm velocity to get the feeling water becomes thick and get a grip. Not sure, but I think this is the arm velocity when the moving hand/arm causes light turbulence. (And it's an amayzing drill to swim some laps so slow that you just do not feel the grip...) But when shortening the SR to approximately 1.15-1.2, without taking up too many strokes for me the feel starts I become a soda machine and and adding more force/power into stroke has no effect in more pace but than losing energy.

OK, I become more tensed with this SRs and surely best streamline will be not really best as (felt) for 1.4. But there must be a solution how to add more force/power without just losing it.

Terry once wrote, building the catch should happen as slow and forceless as possible and the push/stroke as fast as possible. But I'm sure there is some extreme tiny non linear accerleration adjustment between falling into catch and fastest possible push that will make a real big difference in pace.

Are there any metaphors, drills, analogies or researches how to focus in that? Or have we just to get used of higher SRs and it will happen some time ... or never?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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My perception of grip in relation to swim speed:

zero to low speed slower than 2.30 min/100m: little grip, water is thin and flowing around the arm/hand.
little more speed 2.30-2 min/100m: little more grip
little more speed:2-1.30 min/100m optimal grip (best DPS)
max speed 1.10/100m( only for 25 m) loosing traction, arm traction starts breaking away. Massive drag felt on body.

For better swimmers this window of optimal traction seems to shift to higher speeds. Maybe real good swimmers can find traction at any speed. Dont know very good swimmers.

If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.

If the basic movement patterns are right there is no absolute need for a super sensitive touch. There will be not much slippage even when swimming a bit rough or jerky.But smooth movements delay the breakaway limit a bit.
When I imagine my hand and forearm attached to a plank and thinking of sticking that plank in the mud and pulling the body past and over it, I get the best tractiion, even if there isnt a plank.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-17-2014 at 03:07 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Zenturtle,

thanks for your answer. My optimal traction lies between 1:45-2:10min/100m. But it seems to break down totally below 1:40. (I'm aware that are slow speeds (in absolute terms) - Suzanne's recovery...)

Quote:
If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.
Well, I hope my drag/streamline is not cause of that gripless hole. The traction surface of hand/arm will be constant (more or less) and yes, how can I build the gradually right pressure before loosing ideal traction? Think it's similar as a mirrorpoint to the slowest stroke where you just can feel traction starts. Think it shouldn't be a jerk, more gently but forcefully acceleration with maximum force applyed just at the last stroke cm. But how to adjust this?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Werner, I suggest you practice sculling to gain a more perceptive feel for the water. You also have to remember that the feel for catch is not only felt at the arm, but from the hip too. Otherwise it is just a pull. Underswitch is an invaluable exercise for this. More hip drive means more power, but you have to able to transmit that via your arm, so you need to develop that relationship.
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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yep, for basic feel for the water with the arms and hands I too would say Scull drils.
Not ideal to overthink this, Better let the body learn by itself after a lot of sculling praxtice. Most important to make an underwater arm movement that gives some resisitive surface area, Thats not an horizontal arm with a dropped elbow.

Anoter more TI like view on slipping is timing between armpull and body rotation.
If you are working against bodyrotation your pull will feel slippery, lost and tiring.
The basic movement where the pull is buitl upon is the rotating treelog.
The pull must fit in the rolling rhytm of the treelog just like the push of a swing at the right moment.
A bad timed pull feels just as waisted and energy sapping as a swing push thats totally off.
A lot od swimmers can swim fast without a big atm surface (with closed fists), so its not only about hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ra4JL8Jfk

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-17-2014 at 06:22 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Werner,

I don't usually get very much below 2 min/100 m, so my comments may have limited relevance, but here they are, for whatever they are worth.

First, I can remember only being able to swim at much slower speeds than I now swim at, and I can ask myself what changed between then and now. It certainly wasn't the conscious force I was applying to the water. On the contrary, it sometimes seems to me that, as my speed has increased, my effort and force has, if anything decreased.

One might argue that the explanation for what I experienced is that, when my technique was much worse than it is now, streamlining was the major way to improve. Clearly at some point, streamlining starts to become optimized and then one can only increase speed by working harder. If so, my question is: At what speed does this trade-off start to occur? It probably depends on body type, but, for a body like mine (1.8m, 68kg) when have I started to optimize streamlining so that I need to start focussing more on the effort side? Is it at about 2 min./100m? Any thoughts?
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
But when shortening the SR to approximately 1.15-1.2, without taking up too many strokes for me the feel starts I become a soda machine and and adding more force/power into stroke has no effect in more pace but than losing energy.
Just to understand you clearly, when you become a soda machine etc., and you are losing energy, this is manifested as a marked rise in SPL, right?

@CoachSuzanne: It only seemed like heresy because I was blindly adhering to only one part of the sacred text! Thanks for pointing me again to the other parts, and balancing out my knowledge.
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