Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Racing
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-03-2009
pmuni pmuni is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 28
pmuni
Default Kicking - mixed messages

I am 48 years old, and have been racing regularly in my local Masters' circuit with acceptable results for the past two years.

When I picked up TI, one of the first things I learned was to slow down my kicking, because it interfered with streamling and proper timing. As I watched TI videos, I realized that this was the case with most coaches and other advocates. Good TI swimmers' kick seemed unperceptible and seem to never break the surface.

However, I have found empirically that this slower kicking affects my speed considerably in the distances that I normally compete in (50m and 100m). I believe that my stroke has become cleaner and more efficient applying TI trechniques, but in no way has that been able to compensate the effect of slower kicking.

My training buddies and coach insist that I speed up kicking, but I am still trying to reconcile that idea with what appears to work well with others.

I would like to hear from other racers out there about their experiences.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-03-2009
CoachDave's Avatar
CoachDave CoachDave is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 249
CoachDave
Default Different approach

For many people, calming down the kick helps at any speed. If you've been racing a while, it's not so much that you try to do a two-beat kick, but that each and every kick fits into the rhythm. Even a six beat kick has one kick to snap the hips and two on each edge. On shorter races, the right kick will make the difference. Make sure it barely pushes beyond the streamline at full strength, but realize that the demand that puts on you can't be sustained for most people without extensive training even to a distance of 200 or 400. I can and have kicked like a madman in my sprints, but at the slightly backed-off tempo where I can still manage the connections between hip drive and rotation.
__________________
Dave Cameron
Total Immersion Master Coach
Head Coach- Minneapolis YWCA Otters and Masters and MN Tri Masters
www.ywcampls.org/ti
www.ywcampls.org/otters
www.distancedave.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-03-2009
Grant Grant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sooke, BC. Canada
Posts: 581
Grant
Default

I have been competing for about 15 years and started incorporating TI about 6 years ago. My results are similar to what Dave and you report. I still need to use a quiet flutter kick on the 50,100 and 200m to be competitive. Once I get into 400 and 800 I am competitive with a 2 beat kick. I still kick vigorously on the last lap of any race.
The TI practice has resulted in my times coming down in all distances. At 74 I am beginning to level off in the 50, 100 and 200 races but the 400 and 800 are still coming down.
Am really working on flip turns, dolphin kicking off the wall and breakouts.
At your age you have wonderful years of fun swimming ahead. Enjoy the ride.
__________________
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
Grant
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-03-2009
pmuni pmuni is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 28
pmuni
Default

Thanks Coach Dave and Grant for your replies. It makes a lot of sense what you say about making sure the timing of the kick stays in synch with hip rotation. I will keep in mind the count you mention for the 6-beat kick with one for each hip rotation and two on the edges. It doensn't sound easy, but worth a try!

I guess training with a kickboard does not make much sense, as the whole timing issue is missed and we kick on a flat position.

The frustrating part for me is being left behind in practice by other swimmers for whom kicking just seems natural.

Regards,

Pablo
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-03-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default A comment from a non-competitive beginner...

I started to use the correct kicking very early in my drills. So when I did a right hip drive I would start it with a kick from the left food. In the drills I am flutter kicking in between switches, but switches I always did with the correct foot kicking to initiate the hip drive.
The effect was when I started with full strokes it was rather easy to get into a 2BK. The only thing that prevents a nice 2BK is balance problems so I flutter-kick sometimes in between and my legs sometimes do strange things to counteract loss of balance. But to use the right (=not wrong) foot at the right time is almost automatic.
The other day I felt a little high-spirited (I don't know if this is the right word...) and I wanted to do a fast lap with kicking. So I figured it out and thought, ok, the only way is kickwithhipdrive - kick - kick - kickwithhipdrive - kick - kick - ... as Coach Dave said. I started the lap and it worked from the very beginning, although I never drilled a 6BK. The kicking as the initiation of the hip drive was so imprinted that it worked on its own and I was actually kicking a nice 6BK with my strokes although I not even once drilled that. Probably it was very slow but I was amazed how much propulsion came from the kicking and I felt like a torpedo :)

In short, to imprint the kick with the hip-drive might be enough to be able to swim with 2BK and 6BK. Yes, I admit - I am very fond of drilling. I know, not everybody is. It's boring and not cool. But it brings so much benefit.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-05-2009
CoachDave's Avatar
CoachDave CoachDave is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 249
CoachDave
Default Kicking in sprint sets

Our powerful boy swimmers have a fifth stroke of sorts, and we cater it to how each feels the rhythm in the hips. Some of them have enough power in a broader stroke to get a really strong upper core tempo going, and have a powerful two beat kick to match it- if they went to six, they would be forced to back off the arm tempo. Their hips rotate a bit less to provide them with the tilted hydrodynamics but more immediate purchase on the water with an anchoring catch.
__________________
Dave Cameron
Total Immersion Master Coach
Head Coach- Minneapolis YWCA Otters and Masters and MN Tri Masters
www.ywcampls.org/ti
www.ywcampls.org/otters
www.distancedave.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.