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  #51  
Old 03-16-2011
JBeaty JBeaty is offline
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Originally Posted by fjconti72 View Post
I would like to watch a video. But if this is correct, then moving the body and the arm must displace water asymmetrically, as discussed many times, above and in the 'important new insight...' thread. Certainly it does not imply that rotation directly contributes to forward motion as it does in baseball, or that swinging arms generates motion per se.
Rotation helps with forward motion by allowing the body to reach a more streamlined position on each side. If we still tried to swim flat, as per the 80's and before, would be move forward? Yes but as the sport has tied more into whole body movements, we have learned that by adding a bit of rotation to each side, we are able to travel a bit more forward on each stroke, thus being able to go faster,using a little less energy to do so.

So, I would say that rotation does directly help with forward motion. Just as as the recovering arm generate motion
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  #52  
Old 03-16-2011
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CoachKris CoachKris is offline
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fjconti72 you are referring only to 3rd Newton's law but have a look on a first one as well and you will find out that object on the move will continue to move as long as other external forces will work against that movement. This is why maintaining momentum and reducing drag is so important in swimming

pulling arm definitely can generate more propulsion but you don't have to pull in order to swim, I've tried it and i know it works this far no-one here proved that there is a physic rule that wont allow it to happen all the opponents are limiting they point to either 'basic physics' or Newton's 3rd law, lads if you want to get more serious you will have to look a bit deeper into physics. Key is to combine both to optimize your stroke power.

otherwise this discussion is pointless I've experienced it and I'm also quite happy with my understanding of basic physics so unless someone will provide a good explanation on why is it impossible to aid propulsion with rotation we can finish that pointless argument.
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  #53  
Old 03-16-2011
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
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Originally Posted by JBeaty View Post
Rotation helps with forward motion by allowing the body to reach a more streamlined position on each side. If we still tried to swim flat, as per the 80's and before, would be move forward? Yes but as the sport has tied more into whole body movements, we have learned that by adding a bit of rotation to each side, we are able to travel a bit more forward on each stroke, thus being able to go faster,using a little less energy to do so.

So, I would say that rotation does directly help with forward motion. Just as as the recovering arm generate motion
So the subject has now changed, I get. We are not saying that rotation generates propulsion, but that it aid streamlining.

Regarding your recovery arm comment, please explain how it generates motion, or go and read all the previous threads, I'm sure there is no need for me to reply here.
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  #54  
Old 03-16-2011
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachKris View Post
fjconti72 you are referring only to 3rd Newton's law but have a look on a first one as well and you will find out that object on the move will continue to move as long as other external forces will work against that movement. This is why maintaining momentum and reducing drag is so important in swimming

pulling arm definitely can generate more propulsion but you don't have to pull in order to swim, I've tried it and i know it works this far no-one here proved that there is a physic rule that wont allow it to happen all the opponents are limiting they point to either 'basic physics' or Newton's 3rd law, lads if you want to get more serious you will have to look a bit deeper into physics. Key is to combine both to optimize your stroke power.

otherwise this discussion is pointless I've experienced it and I'm also quite happy with my understanding of basic physics so unless someone will provide a good explanation on why is it impossible to aid propulsion with rotation we can finish that pointless argument.
Again, a change of subject from 'free' propulsion by magical forces, to reducing drag, the importance of which we all agree on, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

The first law states that motion of an object is constant unless an external force acts against it. By swinging your arm you do not apply an external force, unless you push against the water. For this reason, swinging my arms will not get me to the 4th floor of a building, in 0 gravity, like you suggested, unless I push on the pavement.

If you think otherwise, please write to the idiots at NASA who are using fuel to propel once in orbit. Swinging a metallic arm forth should suffice, for which we need no fuel, just some AA batteries....

These points have been argued very effectively by others before me on this board, and if they didn't come across, there is no point in me arguing. I do understand now how this kind of conversation can lead one to exasperation.

I fail to understand why you obsess in defending principles that are unscientific at best. It goes against evidence. It is like me saying that I swim faster by increasing drag, and sticking to the position in the face of common sense.

So best wishes, and if you really think you can use the mystical forces of rotation and arm swinging to obtain a net propulsion, then good luck.
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  #55  
Old 03-16-2011
jcphil jcphil is offline
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Default Force generated due to spearing

An analogy I would like to propose is vaulting over a fence. Your body has momentum as you anchor your hands on top of the fence. You usually wait until your arms are vertical, then complete the jump by swinging your legs forward. You exert pressure with your hands against the fence, but don't really push much. This is a weight shift similar to what I feel when I kick, rotate, and complete the spear without conciously moving the catching hand. The spear helps you do a forward and down weight shift.
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  #56  
Old 03-16-2011
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
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Originally Posted by jcphil View Post
An analogy I would like to propose is vaulting over a fence. Your body has momentum as you anchor your hands on top of the fence. You usually wait until your arms are vertical, then complete the jump by swinging your legs forward. You exert pressure with your hands against the fence, but don't really push much. This is a weight shift similar to what I feel when I kick, rotate, and complete the spear without conciously moving the catching hand. The spear helps you do a forward and down weight shift.
I also feel this when I swim, so I agree with your analogy regarding the feeling side of things. But in jumping a fence:

1-you have an anchoring point, and there you exert force against the fence. This will be weak only if you had run beforehand, but will in fact have to be quite strong if you were stationary.

2-the swinging of your legs has a component that goes in the direction of travel. Rotation is swimming does not.

If you were to wing your legs in space without anchoring, you would have no net movement relative to the fence.
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  #57  
Old 03-16-2011
JBeaty JBeaty is offline
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Originally Posted by fjconti72 View Post
So the subject has now changed, I get. We are not saying that rotation generates propulsion, but that it aid streamlining.

Regarding your recovery arm comment, please explain how it generates motion, or go and read all the previous threads, I'm sure there is no need for me to reply here.
Streamlining aides in propulsion. Rotating aides in streamlining. Rotation aides in propulsion.

The recovering arm is able to swing freely above the water. When it starts on the downward path back into the water, the weight of the arm helps the body snap over and send it forward. If the recovery is done to slow, the body will sink. If the recovery is done too quickly and disconnects from the rest of the body, the arm crashes down, causing a disturbance, thus slowing down.

The recovering arm signals the body when to rotate to the other side, thus using rotation and the swing of the arm to help drive the body forward.
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  #58  
Old 03-16-2011
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
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Hi, I have been watching this with interest for some time but as a newcomer to the forum (but 3 years TI) I haven't replied in case people thought that all Brits. were aggressive and rude whilst trying to make a point.
Physics was absolutely my worse subject at school so may I give my own empirical experience? I wonder if we are concentrating too much on spearing and rotating rather than the pulling action of the other arm combined with rotating. I have found that keping a very patient lead arm until my spearing arm has almost caught up - between elbow and wrist -then combining body roll with pull gives a definite and positive move forward, which is much more powerful than simply pulling, even in a streamlined position. My strong feeling is that pull and rotation combined are not only physiologically sound (better for the rotator cuff!) but enable a far more powerful leverage than can ever be achieved with a pulling arm alone - or one can travel at the same speed with a lot less effort.
I am not sure that my recovering, spearing arm is doing much more than extend my waterline length and getting into position for the same action on the next stroke.
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  #59  
Old 03-16-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Originally Posted by fjconti72 View Post
You may see it like this,or you may feel it like this, but this is not the way it is.
Do you mean what we see & feel isn't the way we're describing what happens? Maybe so, but it is what happens, as a practical matter.
Have you tried it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjconti72 View Post
Try spearing forward without pulling your opposite arm underwater. And also, try rotating without pulling with you arm. In both cases you will go nowhere (save from some displacement of water backwards, assuming it is even there at all)
I demonstrate both of these "actions" quite often for students, especially at workshops where looks of disbelief often follow my description of how a body moves forward in water most efficiently - with little or no pull. I'll lay in the water, in CoreBalance & rotate 5,6,7 times, but go nowhere. I'll then lay in the same position & spear my bottom arm forward & backward several times with the same result. Next I rotate, then spear & move forward some, albeit not much. Last I kick, rotate, spear & move forward very well. I can easily go from the flags to the wall - 5 yds. from a dead start) this way doing one switch.
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  #60  
Old 03-16-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
Do you mean what we see & feel isn't the way we're describing what happens? Maybe so, but it is what happens, as a practical matter.
Have you tried it?

I demonstrate both of these "actions" quite often for students, especially at workshops where looks of disbelief often follow my description of how a body moves forward in water most efficiently - with little or no pull. I'll lay in the water, in CoreBalance & rotate 5,6,7 times, but go nowhere. I'll then lay in the same position & spear my bottom arm forward & backward several times with the same result. Next I rotate, then spear & move forward some, albeit not much. Last I kick, rotate, spear & move forward very well. I can easily go from the flags to the wall - 5 yds. from a dead start) this way doing one switch.
Interesting, CoachKevin

Do you spear with an above the water recovery or an underwater recovery, and if underwater, is it quite a vigorous spear?

This is something I must try.
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