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  #1  
Old 03-29-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Default Rotation -> Propulsion ?

Although I am 200% sold on TI, I still find it difficult explaining to someone why ROTATION is important and how it helps propulsion...

Let's Take the example of SWIMMER-1 (swimming flat) and SWIMMER-2 (Rotating) both using a 2BK. Let's assume they both have an arrow coming out of their belly button (pointing down) and we watch them swim from the front (coming towards us).

SWIMMER-1 (Flat). The Stroke cycle goes as follows: Right Kick, Left arm spear, right arm Catch/pull the water back... The arrow points down at all times (0 deg) as their is no rotation

SWIMMER-2 (With Rotation). The Stroke cycle goes as follows: Right Kick, Hip rotation, Left arm spear, right arm Catch/pull the water back... The arrow points [-45deg, 0deg, +45deg] as the body rotates

One could argue that the combination of the Kick + Catch/Pull + Spearing makes the body move forward.
But why would SWIMMER-2 get more propulsion forward than SWIMMER 1 ?
What is the exact contribution from rotation?

Thanks. ALEX
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  #2  
Old 03-29-2011
CoachBrian CoachBrian is offline
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200% sold? I bet you've been told a million times not to exaggerate.
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  #3  
Old 03-29-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
What is the exact contribution from rotation?
I think of it as an aid to streamlining. A shoulder above water reduces drag. Rotation also sets up catch to employ the strong back muscles, easing lessening shoulder stress.

Energy is transferred from leg, through core, to the outstretched arm, shifting body weight from side-to-side.

Degree of rotation varies with speed and style, but it does seem now to be a well accepted aspect of good stroke mechanics - TI philosophy or otherwise.
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  #4  
Old 03-29-2011
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
What is the exact contribution from rotation?

Thanks. ALEX
It allows for a more efficient pull, a more efficient recovery, more efficient breathing, better streamlining, etc.

It give no propulsion per se, but it allows for better propulsion.
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  #5  
Old 03-29-2011
Spideroffaith77 Spideroffaith77 is offline
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I think of rotation this way.

Rotation doesnt give you significantly more power, rotation makes you "smaller" in the water. Swimmer 1 is swimming flat shouldered with a metaphorical summo wrestler pushing against his shoulders as he tries to move forward. Swimmer two is swimming with rotation, high shoulder, smaller pressence, with a metaphorical 10 year old girl pushing on his shoulders as he moves forward. Both swimmers experience resistance from the water but because swimmer two is rotating he is experiencing much less resistance. Therefore, less resistance equals faster swimming.
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2011
Janos Janos is offline
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Alex, the two examples you give, are of two different styles, or approaches to swimming. Shoulder rotation only, as opposed to hip driven body rotation. They are both valid, but are generally used for different purposes. Head down shoulder rotated stroke is the domain of a lot of sprinters, although I have yet to see somebody incorporate a two beat kick into a sprint. This style by virtue of the fast arm turnover and kick uses more energy and more stokes per lap than the more economical hip driven freestyle using a two beat kick.
The power from the sprinter comes from the strength of his shoulders, whereas the TI swimmer is cleverly harnessing the kinetic chain of whole body rotation and using it against the fixed anchor point of the catch.

Regards

Janos

Last edited by Janos : 03-30-2011 at 01:38 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-29-2011
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
The power from the sprinter comes from the strength of his shoulders, whereas the TI swimmer is cleverly harnessing the kinetic chain of whole body rotation and using it against the fixed anchor point of the catch.
So true! TI swimmers swim with a connected, whole-body stroke.
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  #8  
Old 03-30-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Alex, the two examples you give, or of two different styles, or approaches to swimming. Shoulder rotation only, as opposed to hip driven body rotation. . . . shoulder rotated stroke is the domain of a lot of sprinters . . .This style by virtue of the fast arm turnover and kick uses more energy and more stokes per lap . . . whereas the TI swimmer is cleverly harnessing the kinetic chain of whole body rotation and using it against the fixed anchor point of the catch.
Janos has summed up the value of rotation nicely. But there's more as well:
1) It's true that shoulder rotation alone will provide much of the drag-avoidance we look for. But without hip rotation too, there will be a degree of tension and torque in the midsection that, over time, will tire a swimmer more quickly.
2) Hip rotation also is critical as the 'engine' for the 2BK, which in turn gives back power to the stroke.
3) And finally, as Janos sums up, a hip-driven stroke is unquestionably the most economical and sustainable way to swim any middle or long distance, an advantage that becomes even more significant in open water. A hip driven stroke provides enormous energy savings for fatigue-prone (and injury prone as well) shoulder muscles.

The question really isn't whether the hips or shoulders provide more propulsion. The main issue for human swimmers - because at best (i.e. Michael Phelps) over 90% of our energy and horsepower is diverted into something other than propulsion -- is how to save energy expended on propulsion. On that, the question is entirely settled. Hip-driven propulsion is far more economical.
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Last edited by terry : 03-30-2011 at 12:45 AM.
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2011
tab tab is offline
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I'm so new to this but I find the kick, hip drive, spear, rotation combo give a "snap" to the stroke, something not present in Flat example.

Cross country skiing has been mentioned as a comparison. I have skied far more than I have swam. I can not help but see a similarity in the kick and glide associated with skiing. Reaching out in front and planting a pole, in this manor the body is twisted albeit perhaps not as much, in the stretch. Also there is a clear feeling in the kick and glide that feels sweet. This same feeling is present when I swim using the 2 beat kick. Is there really a similarity, or am I imagining it?
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2011
alkid alkid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Alex, the two examples you give, or of two different styles, or approaches to swimming. Shoulder rotation only, as opposed to hip driven body rotation. They are both valid, but are generally used for different purposes. Head down shoulder rotated stroke is the domain of a lot of sprinters, although I have yet to see somebody incorporate a two beat kick into a sprint. This style by virtue of the fast arm turnover and kick uses more energy and more stokes per lap than the more economical hip driven freestyle using a two beat kick.
The power from the sprinter comes from the strength of his shoulders, whereas the TI swimmer is cleverly harnessing the kinetic chain of whole body rotation and using it against the fixed anchor point of the catch.

Regards

Janos
I'm not sure we can accomplish an effective Plyometric Contraction without good shoulder rotation; Again this is not critical to the sprinter, but very important for an economical stroke in a distance swimmer!
Conclusion; Swimmer One is a Sprint Swimmer and Swimmer Two is a Distance Swimmer.
Cheers Al
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