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  #11  
Old 02-05-2012
sinker sinker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
I've not seen this mentioned lately ---- "the Shinji snap of the wrist" at the end of the stroke.

It does a couple of things. It helps promote a full stroke as this is the last step before the start of the recovery (or even thinking about the recovery), and, it eases the start of the recovery by placing some forward propulsion to the arm (elbow) which is recovering - the snap helps force the arm (elbow) back towards the surface.
Mike
I experimented with this wrist snap a couple swims ago and was quite amazed at how this easy to adapt technique added immediate momentum to the beginning of the recovery. It is also an aid to my balance as it gets my recovering arm moving forward more quickly and allows for an "almost pause" just before my hand enters the water, which creates an extra instant to set up my catch.
If anyone out there has not tried this wrist snap, give it a try. You will know in a few strokes if it is for you. As Shinji says---"The rear hand: keep moving"
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  #12  
Old 02-05-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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On wrist snap.
In my experience I got better results by not flexing the wrist, rather keeping the wrist in a straight line with the forearm. By flexing the wrist I push the water up and not back. The sensation of snapping the wrist I think is best described as moving the wrist and forearm backwards as a unit at an increased speed. This may be just six inches but does have a positive effect on the feel of the whole stroke. It does not torque the shoulder joints.
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
On wrist snap.
In my experience I got better results by not flexing the wrist, rather keeping the wrist in a straight line with the forearm. By flexing the wrist I push the water up and not back. The sensation of snapping the wrist I think is best described as moving the wrist and forearm backwards as a unit at an increased speed. This may be just six inches but does have a positive effect on the feel of the whole stroke. It does not torque the shoulder joints.
There was also a recent thread here about interpreting video, and the dangers in attributing an intention to certain actions. While I can't speak for shinji himself, I've never heard any TI coach advocate a wrist snap to "finish" the stroke.

In fact, you see Terry do it on the right, and when I commented on it, he said, "I know, I've never been able to get rid of that no matter ow hard I try."
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
There was also a recent thread here about interpreting video, and the dangers in attributing an intention to certain actions. While I can't speak for shinji himself, I've never heard any TI coach advocate a wrist snap to "finish" the stroke.

In fact, you see Terry do it on the right, and when I commented on it, he said, "I know, I've never been able to get rid of that no matter ow hard I try."
Suzanne,

Please direct me to the thread you mentioned here. Thanks.

Sinker,

I see the same things as I think you do with the snap. I also feel a much more relaxed wrist just both before the snap and when entering that wrist back into the water for the next stroke. I've managed to find the "Underwater Finish..." description and video by Shinji. Look here : http://www.totalimmersion.net/compon.../article/6/172

Sometimes the more we do things, there is a sudden understanding of how they are supposed to work. A clearer understanding just "snaps" into place .... the "Swim and Nod" snapped into place for me Friday. Purposeful, patient, positive progression can be such a fun thing!
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Thanks mike. I think that video has room to be interpreted incorrectly. The still.pauses where the text overlay says to snap appear (to me) to be in what I describe as the "meaty" part of the stroke when the forearm is around a vertical angle near.the waist...this is the most powerful part of the stroking movement when velocity is fastest in the water. I dont see a "wrist snap" but experimentation is always what we are after here so try it and see what you think.

When I get to that part of the stroke I'm thinking.g of press, not pull or snap.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 02-05-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-05-2012
CoachBrian CoachBrian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
There was also a recent thread here about interpreting video, and the dangers in attributing an intention to certain actions. While I can't speak for shinji himself, I've never heard any TI coach advocate a wrist snap to "finish" the stroke.

In fact, you see Terry do it on the right, and when I commented on it, he said, "I know, I've never been able to get rid of that no matter ow hard I try."
I've mentioned that to Terry as well, but it's in reference to lifting water at the end of the stroke, not "snapping" the wrist.

The forearm muscles should hold enough tone merely to keep the fingers pointed down and the palm pointed back. If you keep the hand in line with the forearm, the palm faces up at the end of the stroke, pulling water up, pulling you down, and not resulting in forward motion.

I allow my wrist to bend as I get past the midpoint of the stroke. Once the fingers no longer point down, it's time to lift the hand cleanly out of the water as my elbow circles forward.

The "Shinji Wrist Snap" accomplishes this for higher stroke rates. A little flick of the wrist propels the elbow forward without lifting water.

After seeing Shinji's video about the finish of the stroke, I was confused until I experimented with an open mind, rather than literal interpretation.
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  #17  
Old 02-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBrian View Post
I've mentioned that to Terry as well, but it's in reference to lifting water at the end of the stroke, not "snapping" the wrist.

The forearm muscles should hold enough tone merely to keep the fingers pointed down and the palm pointed back. If you keep the hand in line with the forearm, the palm faces up at the end of the stroke, pulling water up, pulling you down, and not resulting in forward motion.

I allow my wrist to bend as I get past the midpoint of the stroke.

.
Sure...that's what I describe as pressing the water...

"wrist snap" doesn't convey what he is doing in my opinion. I think it needs more careful explanation. It seems like it's shinji's rememdy against the "poisonous pause" which is caused when people "finish the stroke" the way that is traditionally taught...getting the elbow stuck in the rear delaying recovery without adding much to forward propulsion.

If so, we need a better way to describe this because "wrist snap" to me sounds like "finishing the stroke" by pushing water back until the last possible moment.

The action that I do feels to me like bouncing a basketball, and may be the same movement he is talking about...there is a little "snap" as if your fingers are gently dribbling the ball...then to perform the next dribble the fingers plam & hand need to be already moving back up in the air so you don't smack the ball as it travels back up...so that little snap that pushes the ball down also heps you begin lifting the hand for the next dribble. That's what my "finish" feels like...is that what you are experiencing?
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  #18  
Old 02-05-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Thanks Suzanne! I appreciate input from people of experience and with a better eye for the interpretation of what the videos show.

I think it may be more as Brian points out ... more of a flick rather than a snap of the wrist. But then we're talking more about amplitude or magnitude of similar actions.

I had never seen this as a means of going faster but rather as a way to lesson the effort of moving the arm (elbow) forward for the next stroke. Just (analogy alert ) as a flywheel helps keep things moving smoothly with forces already developed.

I see a subtle flick / snap of the left hand at about the 16sec mark and in the second slow motion segment at 1m:03s. There are several others as well.

But as you say we learn from our experimentation. What might work for me may not for another.

I certainly didn't mean to hijack the thread galax started - my apologies! But I saw this suggestion by Shinji as a way to lessen effort with positive results.

At the end of the month I'll be taking "my TI stroke" to the Grand Summit pool at Sunday River! Skiing and swimming - two of my favorite things. Like Naj - I'll be swimming outdoors at the mid winter point!!! :-)
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  #19  
Old 02-05-2012
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashby View Post
Definitely don't minimise strokes, I'm quicker and it's easier swimming 22 strokes per length than 19. Less strokes isn't efficient very often, it's something i'm quite frustrated with TI for promoting as a rule.
Hi Ashby,

I am curious how you came to the conclusion that you are "quicker and it's easier" at 22 SPL? Was your SPL 22 the first time you counted strokes?
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Last edited by rbs24h : 02-05-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-05-2012
swimmermike swimmermike is offline
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Suzanne, Brian, Mike:

When Suzanne writes this: "there is a little "snap" as if your fingers are gently dribbling the ball...then to perform the next dribble the fingers plam & hand need to be already moving back up in the air so you don't smack the ball as it travels back up..." it definitely describes something that happened this morning.

I swam 2000 meters, starting and ending with drills. As I worked on my catch toward the end, and just let the finish of the stroke happen, I realized I had inadvertently changed focal points: I was feeling the weight shift (not thinking about it). And I had begun to gently "flick" my hand at then end of the stroke.

These two things (the heightened sensation of the weight shift and the flick) came on at the same time, uninvited.

The weight shift aspect reminded me of the swaying shift you use when rollerblading (someone had used this analogy in a post a few months ago).

I can say that all of this happened without any applied intent. For the rest of the swim, I just went with it, trying not to think!

I can't wait to get back tomorrow morning.
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