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  #11  
Old 08-30-2013
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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(I) Like Grant, I swim primarily in pools, so some of the criteria are hard to evaluate. But I can spend more than an hour in water over my head without any problem, and the answer to the question "How far can you swim?" is for me on a par with the question "How far can you walk?" - undoubtedly there's a limit, but I've never had the time to do it long enough to discover what that limit is.

(ii) 6-7%, I think.

(iii) 9-10%.
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2013
drmike drmike is offline
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ii) By these criteria probably mid-pack (5 - 6), but I don’t fit neatly any bin.

i) This is me to a “T” --> “Feel more at home in the water than anywhere else, and swimming feels better and is more satisfying than any other physical activity.” (Bin 7-8) And I can swim with decent form up to ¾ max effort. But if direct measurements were possible, I’d bet my energy conversion efficiency would prove no better than 3%.

iii) I’m aware of enough stroke flaws that IF I’m at 5-6 now, I can imagine improving to 6-7 w/in a couple years.

Mike M.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2013
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
At what speed? Cruising comfy pace? Race pace?
Charles
I think that would depend on the individual's goals and priorities. I tried to create the descriptions so poll-takers would take that into account in assessing into what category they fit. I swam on the verge of 'all out' both yesterday and today at Minnewaska. Yesterday I'd say my efficiency stayed near 8% at my red line.
Today I think I was a bit short of 7% efficient on my last length, racing two swim buddies on the last length of a 400 (200y line). Two factors (1) Fatigue today bcz of swimming quite intensely two consecutive days; (2) Longer repeats. Yesterday was 15 x 200. Today was 2x400+2x800+2x400 with pace increasing on every repeat.

The more you can maintain close to your peak level efficiency (whether measured subjectively via sensations or objectively via SPL) as Pace increases, the higher you should rank yourself
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Science might argue that gross efficiency can only be measured using gas exchange analysis, but I'd trust human feeling to easily cross ref perceived effort with swim velocity to self assess efficiency. Nice path you're taking.


It would obviously be interesting and fairly easy to study on that. All you need is a flume and gas exchange machine, swimmers. You ask them to self assess according to a grid of levels, and then compare with the actual efficiency.

Something which is probably even easier to self assess might be propelling efficiency. Not sure if you came across it but I put together a little google doc to this effect

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5Sm5NbVE#gid=0

It calculates swim pace based on wingspan (or standing height) stroke rate and stroke efficiency level. By slightly tweaking rate and efficiency %, you can estimate yours out of say a 1500m performance, or like you point out (and I so much agree), any swim weather it's aerobic fruity pace, higher end competitive pace, etc. Not everyone swim with the intent of making every rep as fast as it possibly can be.

I'm amazed to see that in spite of being totally open for edit, publicly, the google doc remains top shape. People are respectful.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-31-2013 at 01:35 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2013
Nickyb Nickyb is offline
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Another interesting way to monitor your swimming...
I have just returned from a very enjoyable 2km swim this morning (took 44 minutes). Got out of the pool feeling more relaxed than when I went in with that pleasurable satisfaction of nicely worked muscles. The increased satisfaction of working on only one or two focal points and being aware of 'feeling' improvement also heightens the enjoyment. At the moment I'm enjoying working on being long and tall when rolling to breath without dropping my lead arm.
I would say I'm a 5 or 6 at the moment using Terry's descriptions. I have been swimming about 8 months and aim to be swimming under 40 minutes for 2km by the end of our summer (about March-ish).
This 7-8 attribute is definitely me "...swimming feels better and is more satisfying than any other physical activity" but I'm not entirely at ease in open water yet. It's not the depth of water but the irrational fear of 'creatures'. On my last open water swim I was attacked by a menacing seaweed clump and I know if I was 2km from shore then I would've made it back in well under my 40 minute goal!
Like CoachBobm I haven't tested how far or how long I could swim given unlimited time...maybe something I experiment with next holidays.
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2013
dougalt dougalt is offline
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Terry,

I'm with Richardsk, at about a "5", with a high enjoyment factor. But, HOW to measure, quantify or index this enjoyment factor? Perhaps, by the width of one's smile at the end of the day?

More scientifically, regarding efficiency indicators, the "Golf Score" game (of summing one's Stroke Count and Seconds Elapsed over 50 yards, to come up with a total number that approximates a golf score) could be expanded by adding a "Heart Rate at the end of 50" data category. Of course, the resulting total of these three factors would no longer resemble "a golf score", but, the total WOULD provide a good indication of efficiency.

Since we all come into this with different heart pumping capacities, this new "Golf Score Efficiency" score might only be useful for measuring one's own progress, as opposed to being able to use this score to compare one person to another.

Doug
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2013
craig.arnold@gmail.com craig.arnold@gmail.com is offline
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I'd guess I'm probably at 7-8% when swimming ~1.45/100 with 2BK - at about 45spm - this is my cruising pace.

According to Charles' spreadsheet (modified for 45spm) I am almost reaching 0.7 - maybe just a tiny bit under, but with a bit of stretch I can get to 1.40 at 45spm, it's just not very comfortable on the shoulder joints over longer distances.

Calculating from my swimwatch, my wingspan/distance per stroke is about 0.7 at that pace - is that what Charles' spreadsheet is showing? Yes I see it must be. Very interesting!!

On my first 10K race this year I finished just inside the top 1/3 overall (out of about 300 entries), but in the 3.65k race I was top 7% overall (out of about 1000 entries).

My main aim for next year is to enter the same two races, but 20kg lighter and quite a lot fitter. We'll see what happens then. Early indications are that at the same heart rate I'll be a fair bit faster. :)

I am less efficient when going faster though, that's the key though isn't it? To keep working until I can get the same efficiency at higher stroke rates.

I'm not far off being able to hold that efficiency at 50spm -> 1.30 pace. Faster than that though means I need to revert to 6BK. And I think that's important in Terry's % figures. Once you switch to 6BK your real efficiency drops way off, heartbeat way up for only very modest propulsive increase. I absolutely cannot swim more than 1500m with a 6BK. Maybe once more weight comes off, but even there I don't think so. Sun Yang uses a 2 or 4 beat kick for at least 1200m of his 1500 races. It's better over long distances to concentrate on efficiency in the stroke rather than pure speed at any energy cost.

But I guess that means that with a 6BK at 45spm I would be more than 0.7 in wingspan conversion, but certainly only at 5-6% on Terry's scale.

I'll do some experiments in the pool next week.

If I could hold that 0.7 efficiency to 85spm I would be swimming 53/100 haha wouldn't that be fun. :)

Kaizen.

Last edited by craig.arnold@gmail.com : 09-07-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2013
terry terry is offline
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Default I'm posting a new blog today on how to estimate efficiency

Find it here.
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2013
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Find it here.
Hi Terry

When I click on the word HERE, it goes to your blog page but an error 404 appears. Nothing else shows

Sherry
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2013
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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ok

I just tried it again and this time the blog was there. Don't know if someone fixed it or my pc is acting up

anyway sorry

Sherry
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