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  #21  
Old 08-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Thanks Charles. I'll try it tomorrow. So far I've only tried it kicking off the bottom in chest deep water. It could be just the medicine I need.
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  #22  
Old 08-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Incidentally, could Ida Marko Varga's glide butterfly be similar to Terry's Fly for Boomers on the Better Fly for Everybody DVD?
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  #23  
Old 08-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Incidentally, could Ida Marko Varga's glide butterfly be similar to Terry's Fly for Boomers on the Better Fly for Everybody DVD?
Yeah absolutely I think, which adds more value to it. When something seems to fit more people, it's usually a good sign.

And I really do insist on the fact that my works are going in an opposite direction. So I merely propose it as a game of try and see, for those who have time etc. And the biggest problem is that it's kind of hard to reprogram someone that 1) does the 2nd kick much earlier than the hand exit and 2) induces a glide in front. It's kind of hard, so I must admit that without live coaching, it could be almost impossible. Works on glide are more commonly supported by several coaches.

The difference between these 2 different approaches is very easy to explain.

Works of those who explore the glide are based on the idea of 1) exploiting streamlining as much as possible and 2) cheating somehow in taking a little nap between each stroke. Resting more allows you to swim longer for same cost.

Works of those who cut the glide are based on the idea of lowering the demand of every single stroke during the execution, which can also lead to a big cut in energy cost thus allowing you to swim longer too. This is achieved by eliminating momentum loss and by making sure the stroke is perfectly timed, timing and gesture optimized for balance which makes the execution even easier.

I've read that Terry also recommends butterfly kick which again makes absolute sense. I truly wish the rules won't change. These guys up high sometimes...

The whole idea is that we all want more registrations to the 100-200 events at master level. We also want to allow your recreational not gifted 1h/week sort of swimmer to try that stroke.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-14-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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  #24  
Old 08-14-2012
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CoachJohnB CoachJohnB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
I just can't help to find it sad for a few reasons, but it is a good way of swimming the fly, not my way but it's a logical way.
Why is it sad? If someone is able to swim fly using the gliding fly approach, it is anything but sad in my opinion.
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  #25  
Old 08-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachJohnB View Post
Why is it sad? If someone is able to swim fly using the gliding fly approach, it is anything but sad in my opinion.
First off, it's worth mentioning that the Fly is the least understood of all strokes as of 2012. French and English versions of the Wikipedia entry concerning this stroke are extremely contradictory.

On the one hand, French is claiming that it's the easiest stroke to learn, and that it should be taught before breaststroke. On the other hand the English version is claiming that it's the most complex of all stroke.

I do believe that it's the most complex. Timing and dynamically balancing the stroke is not easy, everything happen so fast. The butterfly stroke is designed to be swam respecting a few principles. This is how I find that the stroke delivers its best, especially in term of economy.

A subset of these principles is aimed at easing the breathing process as well as the arm recovery process etc... I think, but it's just my opinion, that the Glide drill, if used as your final product, the full stroke, denies addressing some of these principles.

Some swimmers, at a higher level, do benefit a lot from this drill. But in the end, they can all revert back to a perfect execution of the stroke when swimming the full stroke. Phelps has to be an excellent example of this.
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  #26  
Old 08-14-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I find the discussion of different sorts of fly very interesting, although they often do not seem particularly relevant to my own efforts to swim a legal fly, mainly with the intention of completing some IMs.

My kick/undulation is weak and not very propulsive although I can move down the pool with it either with arms out in front or back at the hips.

My attempts to do the NAD are improving and I will soon be able to do a whole 25m without a break, I think.

The vertical armstroke drill is a work in progress and I will report back.

Other drills I do are the breaststroke pull and fly legs, which I like a lot, and something like the Biondi drill or the old stoneskipper drill from the old TI four strokes DVD.

The other favourite is the slow motion fly, which I got from a site on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5mk11WXVXw

I do it with a dolphin kick, although that is not recommended it seems, and the timing is obviously not right, but I can do it in a race and avoid disqualification. It is very slow, which is a drawback, but I am hoping that will improve with practice.

I must consult the French Wikipedia page on butterfly.
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  #27  
Old 08-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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This is a great clip, and a sound approach. Never thought about having my people to perform the arm pulling whilst walking. I like it!!

My works, in short are all oriented toward allowing you to be this slow, but whilst performing a stroke that matches the specifications.

The the best representation of this has to be my slowest 50m butterfly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MVseXW2f5c

In term of arm pulling action, the main diff between this and the content of your clip, is that I do insist a lot on ***not*** giving your hands any acceleration. Pulling must be unweighted. As if you were not pulling anything really. The other diff is that I insist on accelerating the arm recovery instead. So in other words, we approach the arm pulling very differently. On the clip, it is recommended to recovery slowly whilst pulling harder. I recommend recovering faster and pulling slower.

I can probably swim 5k at it, completely out of shape (which is usually the state I'm in swimming wise), at that pace. A sound execution of this sort of fly involves trying to have 1 body part at the surface at all time. The order, as I see it, is Bum/Feet/Head. So this is what I was trying whilst swimming that slow. Keep the bum at the surface upon the first kick, then the feet, then obviously the head when I breathe. So at any point in time, there's a body part breaking the surface.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-14-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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  #28  
Old 08-14-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Thanks, Charles. I'll try not pulling tomorrow and see what happens.Ballistic recovery followed by glide and kick??
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  #29  
Old 08-14-2012
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Hi Ti Community
I've promised to myself that I wasn't going to propose any ideas related to the Freestyle stroke, that could clash with values put forward by Total Immersion. But since the Butterfly room is kind of quiet, I'm thinking that this embargo shouldn't apply to this stroke ;-)
Charles, unless I mistake what you're saying/showing, it doesn't clash with TI teaching, it is TI teaching. It looks exactly like a time-honored (to me at least) drill known as, Hand Lead Body Dolphin. I still teach this as a way to introduce swimmers to the concept of gravity/bouyancy as a way to outsmart the water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The NAD is basically butterfly without the arms. All other elements remain the same. It's purpose is to build a very strong foundation (base), which relies 100% on balance and streamlining, upon which it becomes possible to develop a stroke perfectly suitable for swimming the Fly perpetually.
I'd love to see the other drills that complement this one to completely build your fly foundation.

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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The biggest statement that the NAD tries to issue, would be that it is possible to breathe in without using your hands/arms at all. The key element to NAD in this regard, and I'm well aware that it contredicts some of the TI Principles, is that the head **must** move up and down. It is absolutely crucial in order to allow the body to naturally surface.
I'm not aware that keeping the head still is a TI dictate. When I teach Body Dolphins, I allow the swimmers to move the head up & down a lot at first until they "get" the big picture. A large part of that is figuring out the timing to breathe just as bouyancy pushes them through the surface. As they improve the undulation, the head moves less independently, but still always maintains some subtle movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The NAD was first created back in the '90s.
I'd love to know who it's creation is attributed to...

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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Demonstration at a slower pace, under water view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K5DPz_acyY
(same thing here, near the end I'm adding a few full butterfly strokes, very relaxed, just to show how close the NAD and the full stroke are timing wise)
The following link shows a TI Israel coach demonstrating Hand Lead Body Dolphins. The main difference is that your drill is kick intensive, but the video shows a core/chest intensive activity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txPtnzaAwrY

Looking forward to your replies as it's always good grist for the mill to find out how other folks learn their craft...
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  #30  
Old 08-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Hi Kevin, you may be right I donno, and I'd be glad that my works be inline with TIs

As for the NAD, it is really what it is, No-Arm-Drill, all other elements remain intact. Most of the time hand led dolphin kick drills do not make any distinction between first and second kick, and do not insist on implementing the fly specific breathing pattern.

Try your usual single-arm fly drill. That's fly minus 1 arm breathing on the side. Now remove that only arm, breathe in the front, and there you get the NAD.

Over the last 7 years, I came across one swimmer (not a coach) who did create the same drill, with respect to every single element. A swimmer met on USMS, living in Croatia I believe. Therefore I certainly can not claim the paternity of this drill (I've never really thought that it can be possible to claim having invented a drill, with so many talented young rooster all over the world, how many pools around the world, a million maybe?).

But I remain the one that supports, documents, and teaches this. Since I'm the NAD guy (having created the Freestyle-Nad as well).... I kind of feel responsible for its development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
I'm not aware that keeping the head still is a TI dictate. When I teach Body Dolphins, I allow the swimmers to move the head up & down a lot at first until they "get" the big picture. A large part of that is figuring out the timing to breathe just as bouyancy pushes them through the surface. As they improve the undulation, the head moves less independently, but still always maintains some subtle movement.
this is awesome really. Head movement plays a big role in the ability to breathe / recover the arms with no efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
I'd love to know who it's creation is attributed to...
Like I said, it's impossible to figure this out. When I finally write down a formal article about it, I'll make it clear. I did invent it for myself in that no one around me showed me the way. I support it, but it's impossible to claim having been the first to think about such a simple concept, ie removing the arm to the single-arm drill execution.

As for your other question in regards to the other drills I use, the NAD is just the first portion of a NAD-to-Full progression, which involves:
1/4 done at NAD
1/4 done at Single-Arm
1/4 done with the other arm
1/4 done full stroke
(so performing a 200m NAD-FULL involves 50m NAD, 50m L-Arm, 50m R-Arm, 50m Stroke)

So I do use the single-arm drill extensively as well (breathing either on the side, or in the front). Other than that, I use my vertical pulling drill and obviously, its brother the vertical kicking drill.

That's about it, for the last 2 semester of Perfecting your Freestyle stroke class I taught, and which is my only involvement in teaching the Fly.

And you? I would really love to hear how you teach the hand led dolphin drill, as you may be teaching the NAD, who knows. You'd be the second person I'd find doing this, and I'd be **glad** (sucks to be alone sometimes LOL)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-14-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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