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  #11  
Old 07-31-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Your approach is really not all that radically different from Terry's approach but you approach yours from the legs forward almost with yoru description of the counterbalancing that connects leg movement with upper body movement.
Hi Doc Sue, I am glad that you should see some similarities.

To the best of my knowledge, I'm pretty much alone (as a coach) in drawing this connection. Therefore don't pay too much attention to this. It's there, but it's definitely yet to be proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
When Terry teaches the butterfly he actually starts at the opposite end of the body...legs passive hands oustrerched resting on the surface. The smallest of all possible "flips" of the hands to flip them outward adn back to the surface. Picture the smallest possible butterfly "stroke" performed by a tiny person whose arms are teh size of your hands.
There I'm not sure to follow you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
This "stroke" causes a reaction of the body submerging slightly and the legs, which are passive, will deflect UPWARD. This is essentially the same reaction bu tin a different direction from what you are describing.
I think I understand better. You mean that Terry usually teaches the arm pulling before teaching the body undulation. The NAD is all about body undulation, leg kick is secondary to this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
The other big difference is that Terry does teach taht head moves energy forward, the upward component comes from bouyancy returning the body to the surface. rather than leading up changing the attitude of the head adn lifting it out of the water, the body returns to the surface and as it does so, the stroke (be it the tiny stroke above or a bigger stroke approachign the full stroke) assists that upward return to the surface.
I see. This has to be a big difference then.


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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
So different order, but same process of action/reaction relaxation of as many parts as possible. The only part that I woudl nto adopt of your description is the tilting of the head upward when breathing...I try to maintain a neutral angle of the head so as not to create much cervical motion. AS a youngster it didn't bother me at all, but now after lumber surgery in my 30s and on again off again neck pain (mostly off thanks to posture & core exercises & frequent massage), I try not to do anythign in the pool or on the bike that causes neck strain or stress.
I understand this perfectly. Do you sometimes compete in fly events?
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Hi Doc Sue, I am glad that you should see some similarities.

To the best of my knowledge, I'm pretty much alone (as a coach) in drawing this connection. Therefore don't pay too much attention to this. It's there, but it's definitely yet to be proven.

There I'm not sure to follow you.

I think I understand better. You mean that Terry usually teaches the arm pulling before teaching the body undulation. The NAD is all about body undulation, leg kick is secondary to this.


I see. This has to be a big difference then.




I understand this perfectly. Do you sometimes compete in fly events?
Terry teaches that the body undulation is secondary to the effects of gravity & buoyancy when performing the stroke. But whether you teach undulation first or stroking first, you are both teaching a primary movement and avoiding struggle...timing is a result of harmony not in spite of resistance. In that way it is the same. ;)

I used to complete in exclusively fly events but knocked off that non-sense when I was a teenager. Now I am just an enthusiast and happy to practice for mastery and personal attainment of various sensory and speed benchmarks.
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Salut Charles

I tried your NAD today and it's much too early to say how successful it was, but I did manage to breathe a handful of times and felt the legs rising as the upper body came up. I shall carry on experimenting with it and with various other butterfly drills. Perhaps one day I will be able to do a decent fly. Don't hold your breath (pun intended).
I'm sure you will!

Keep me posted, and thanks for giving it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Hi Charles and Richard
Had my Monday AM swim and played with the NAD. I found I could do it rather easily but using a lot of what TI has taught me. I did about 20 lengths with a short rest at the end of each one. The timing was as my head returned to the surface after entering the water I began the soft catch/pull and just before the head that was held in line with the spine broke the surface I did a very gentle dolphin kick. This combination gave me lots of room to get air (sneaky breath) without needing to lift my head. Recovery was made with palms down and as near the surface as possible. Bringing the head forward I gave a whip like dolphin which helped propel me forward and back into the water streamlined.
These were taking about 40 seconds for the 25m.
I then did about ten one arm NADs which felt wonderful and to use Terry's word "silky". These were done breathing to the side.
Then I did 8 x 25s with a rest between each one. Most of these were at 28 sec and 8 strokes per 25. Also done very gently with out extra energy for speed.
I thank both Charles and Terry for the info and looking forward to more practice on this.
Also looking forward to the new e book on the Fly.
Interesting data here..

I really like the fact you could perform 500m at it. It could mean that it was more pleasant than difficult. I would like to better understand by beginning by a soft catch/pull?
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  #14  
Old 08-01-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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[quote=CharlesCouturier;

Interesting data here..

I really like the fact you could perform 500m at it. It could mean that it was more pleasant than difficult. I would like to better understand by beginning by a soft catch/pull?[/QUOTE]

My apologies Charles. I am actually embarrassed as I morphed into describing my full stroke when I was intending to outline the way I was doing the NAD. Can the specter of dementia be far away ? :0) actually not so :0)
I think I will delete the post and when the trauma subsides I will repost in a rational format.
My apologies to the forum.
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  #15  
Old 08-01-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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I tried to delete the post but it would not allow me.
In the interest of damage control. Ignore "I began a soft/catch pull" as that was in relation to the full stroke. Also the stuff about above water arm recovery is to be ignored.
Thank you people for your tolerance.
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2012
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CoachJohnB CoachJohnB is offline
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Charles,

Take a look at these clips of swedish flyer, Ida Marko-Varga. She uses a fly that her coach refers to as "gliding fly"
I use to be a 200 flyer, until I quit training for the event. I have made several attempts over the years of becoming a flyer again, but my back/shoulders just wouldn't take the training anymore.
One day, a friend of mine showed me these clips. None of us have the same range of movement that Varga has, but we have been able to build-up our swimming distance.
I have only recently started using this approach but can already tell a difference in how my fly feels.
A few of my friends have used this style in competition. Each one of them have been dropping time in both the long course and short course flys.
In the 200, a swimmer gives up a little of the early speed but makes-up for it on the back end because they aren't as tired.
I have started to hold 25 and 50 fly times as fast as when I would attempt a more conventional fly.
I would like to read your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIreWiqUnSM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34_JRmnshC8
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Hey! First I'm glad you still have this passion for fly burning.

Your question could trigger one heck of a strange answer.

First, as a direct response to your question, ie is this drill a good one to work on, I think Michael Phelps answered that question on several occasion. He feeds (or used to feed) on it.

For that matter, any drill which involves some level of glide will always be beneficial for learning to better streamline, which in turns could mean going for longer distance at same energy costs.

That said, some drills tend to have side effects.

My own field of research for fly goes in a totally opposite (you can not find more opposite than that in fact) direction as that which is proposed by your clips. But that doesn't mean any of us is wrong. We just target very different portion of the stroke.

My own field is a quest for learning to dynamically balance the stroke in such a way that during the execution, you no longer feel any effort. And along this process, I do insist a lot on cutting any dead spot in the pulling mechanism. This is 100% sure.

Most of my time as fly teacher is spent synchronizing the second kick with the end of the pulling. This is a crucial aspect for me. And so I have mixed feelings looking at your clip, because it definitely insist on the opposite. The model in this clip clearly kicks way way before the hands exit. Since I know how hard it is to time the stroke correctly, once your whole mechanics is built otherwise, I tend to be careful. Like I said earlier, some drill can have negative side effects.

But, and I insist here. The author of these clips do claim that a female swimmer could have improved as a result of working on this drill. And I do agree. Phelps did rely on that a lot, and it's easy to believe. Is this thing can make you faster at Fly? Sure. It does target distance per stroke. I do lack on that side so someday, it was on my agenda to target this drill. I swim 11strokes in racing, I'd like to cut it down to 10. My tempo trainer could be set to 108 during a 50m flat out, and I wouldn't miss a beep. But that doesn't bring me under 30s for 50m, and I need to go down under. So this drill is a good candidate to help me developing DPS.

I also believe you when you mention that you even adopted this as your main full stroke, and that it was beneficial. I just can't help to find it sad for a few reasons, but it is a good way of swimming the fly, not my way but it's a logical way.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-13-2012 at 03:14 AM.
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  #18  
Old 08-13-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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If you'd like to better understand my way, here's a very simple drill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyfwqJgUTw

Vertical butterfly. No leg kick, you could tie your legs together and the drill would still work, if you do it correctly.

Goal. Finding total comfort zero effort. If you flip the arms for more than 2-3minutes, and still find it extremely easy, then you got it.

How to do it. Play, it's a game. Flip the arm as shown on the clip, with the intent of having your head that goes in and out the water. Limit the amplitude though. Worthless to take your head too high. Often, just moving your face in and out the water is enough. Your body should not be bouncing up and down too much. The goal is to get immediate purchase on the water with your hands upon entry. If you take a catch immediately, you will limit the body sinkage, and will endup on balance throughout the execution.

Then, with no leg kick at all, you'll just perform what may seem to be impossible, perpetual fly arm pulls with no effort whatsoever.

My goal is to teach the fly in a way that you learn to feel this, but whilst swimming the full stroke. It's it's really in total opposite direction, in term of research, as what your clip proposes.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-13-2012 at 03:49 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Charles

Is your vertical drill intended to be done with feet pushing off the bottom or with feet hanging loose in the water?
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  #20  
Old 08-13-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi Charles

Is your vertical drill intended to be done with feet pushing off the bottom or with feet hanging loose in the water?
Hanging loose.

The model on the clip only received a 5min training on how to perform this drill. It was her first contact with it, and she's not a fly swimmer (she's a triathlete). There remained a bit of a body undulation during her execution, but it does not contribute to helping her performing the drill. She did that by habit.

This drill is easy to do with your feet hanging loose.
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