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  #11  
Old 04-25-2011
JBeaty JBeaty is offline
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
. I have been torn between breathing to the side or straight ahead.
I am not torn. I much prefer breathing to the side. I find it easier to maintain the flow of my stroke. I also find it it much easier on my back and shoulders.

I have triend for years to improve my front breathing, with a sneaky breath but it has never worked for me. My hips don't flow the stroke, my entry isn't clean, and my back/shoulders flare-up constantly.

All my best times, scy or lcm have come when I have come when I breath to the side. I am able to take a relaxed breath, keep my flow going and stay low to the water.

I will continue to breath to the side in fly, as it is a much better approach for me.
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  #12  
Old 04-25-2011
Grant Grant is offline
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Seven months have passed since this thread began and it is nice to review what had gone on for those 7 months. I am firmly entrenched in the sneaky breath style. As always the challenge is to maintain it when beginning to tire. Can maintain it easily for 100M. the second 100 is the challenge and I am on that journey.
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  #13  
Old 04-25-2011
Vadim Vadim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachJohnB View Post
This is a video from the 96 olympics. I had the opporunity to see Pankratov swim at the games.

He has/had one of the smoothiest fly strokes I have ever seen. Hope you enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTAOOAoOhFU
I think that in choosing the type of breathing, it is important to understand why Denis even started to breath to the side. Have you noticed that his chest and head never dive deep, as Phelps`s do? It is because one of the most common drills in his practice was “dolphin kick on board”. It is easier to breath to the side in this drill. That’s how it became a habit. It was not a calculated decision, it happened naturally. So if your chest does not go deeper than thighs and you generate body dolphin motion not with your chest but with your thighs, then breathing to the side may be effective for you. You can see the difference if you watch 100 fly finale in Rome 2009 or Beijing 2008. Cavic swam almost like Denis and I presume he can breathe to the side with ease. For Phelps it is totally useless, because he almost doesn`t raise his chin on the breathing phase and his chest moves equally up and down relative to his hips. As a result his speed remain practically the same whether he take a breath or not. Bowman sad so and I believe him.
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  #14  
Old 04-25-2011
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by Vadim View Post
Have you noticed that his chest and head never dive deep, as Phelps`s do?
Having studied Phelp's stroke frame-by-frame under and on the surface I think it's more accurate to say that his head and chest sink, rather than dive.

To dive, he'd need to drop his chin and point the crown of his head down after the breath. Instead - as you note - he keeps his head almost perfectly neutral.
After landing, he keeps his arms in a relatively streamlined position for a nanosecond, during which he continues traveling forward, and gravity draws him down. His arms remain relatively shallow as his chest sinks deeper.
Then buoyancy becomes the stronger force and he's borne back toward the surface - with his head still neutral.

Observing then imitating that is what allowed me to progress from being exhausted after 50y/m of fly, from age 14 to 54, to swimming 200s happily since then. Ten days ago, at age 60, I swam a lifetime best 200 Fly of 3:06. Next week I'll try to get close to 3:00.
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  #15  
Old 04-26-2011
Vadim Vadim is offline
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Originally Posted by terry View Post
Having studied Phelp's stroke frame-by-frame under and on the surface I think it's more accurate to say that his head and chest sink, rather than dive.
You are right. Thanks.

It`s good to know that there are people who actually really study Phelps`s technique. Most of my colleges even those who work with national team think (they actually say it out loud on natoinal TV) that everything Phelps does can be only explained by somatothropine, talent and natural abilities.

For me it came all together when I learned about the mechanics of fly. It is all about using hydrodynamic instability of human body. We have the center of gravity in the hips and the center of frontal resistance in the chest. If you raise your head and chest (the center of frontal resistance) higher then hips (the center of gravity) the incoming flow is going to put you in a vertical position. So in order to take a breath the only thing Phelps needs is to slightly raise his chest above the center of gravity and the water will do the rest. At that phase his hips are on the surface because of his body moving forward and up (stroke and kick). The breath should be quick. Then he needs to put his chest lower than his hips. If you sink your head and chest lower than hips, the incoming flow is going to make his chest sink and his hips rise. At that moment his hips are still high on the surface, and not only because of the second kick. By using equal up and down movement Phelps ensures that his hips are always on the surface and it allows his legs to move almost identically in every part of the two-bit fly. So you can say that his body core and hips are always in a streamlined position. Like Bowman says it`s balance, rhythm and timing.
The understanding of balance and timing allowed me to choose the rhythm, like you said in your lecture.

Last edited by Vadim : 04-26-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-26-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadim View Post
It`s good to know that there are people who actually really study Phelps`s technique. Most of my colleges even those who work with national team think (they actually say it out loud on natoinal TV) that everything Phelps does can be only explained by somatothropine, talent and natural abilities.
Vadim
I've become an unquestioning believer in the Principles of Mastery (and Expert Performance). These say that, in most disciplines - math, science, music, chess and to a large extent sport as well - habits of behavior and attitude are far more responsible than innate traits in creating exceptional performance.

One cannot deny that if you could design the physical traits of a great swimmer, you would likely come up with a body like Phelps's.

Yet at the same time, many of his elite-level peers also have lavish gifts and talents. I've been to the US Olympic Trials about five times and quite a few NCAA and USA Swimming championships and can testify that when walking among the athletes on the pool deck, you could easily think they are almost a different species -- tall, lean, supple, with broad shoulders and narrow hips.

That explains why they've risen to the elite level. But it doesn't determine who, at that level, will achieve 'historic dominance.'

I classify Historic Dominance in several ways
1) Shatter previous records by unusually large margins - Phelps has done so. Ian Thorpe did so as well. Johnny Weismuller did this 80 years ago.
2) Maintain an elite performance level for an unusually long period. Weismuller again, breaking records when he was already past 40. Alexandre Popov remained on top of world standings in the sprints for 12 years, from 1992 through 2003 - absolutely unheard of. Before him Vladimir Salnikov did the same in the 1500. Most elite swimmers are fortunate to retain top rankings for 3 to 4 years. And it seems likely Phelps will join them.
3) Win national, world or Olympic championships across many disciplines. Tracy Caulkins did so in the 1980s. Phelps has done so in the 00s.

Anyone who achieves Historic Dominance does something that can't be explained only by physical gifts. Phelps has done it in all three categories. But he also did something that no swimmer I can think of had done so before him. He simply never loses a race that really matters.

Are you based in Russia?
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Last edited by terry : 04-26-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-26-2011
Vadim Vadim is offline
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Yes, I live in Russia, in Moscow suburban area, to be exact.

Last edited by Vadim : 05-29-2011 at 10:53 AM.
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