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  #71  
Old 05-26-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Coach Stuart,

thanks again for your input here. I'll check out the link you posted, and I guess it's probably time to get a battery for my TT so I can start working with tempos.
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  #72  
Old 05-26-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti97 View Post

I also ride a motorcycle in cold weather. After some time I will lose agility in my legs and arms as result of the body trying to maintain core temperature.

Good luck on your cold water swims....I am envious. Just be careful.
This is the show stopper for me. In cold water, I start to notice that my coordination is deteriorating, as if my brain is issuing commands but my body is no longer responding. When I get out of the pool in such a situation I'll even have trouble walking. Coach Stuart recommends a bathing cap to keep the head warm, and I tried this a few years ago. If it helped, I didn't really notice it. There's not much meat on my body, which may make me more vulnerable, but I no longer try to swim in situations like this. I'll try swimming at a brisk pace to keep warm, but as soon as I notice that my limbs are no longer responding to my commands it's time to get out.
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  #73  
Old 05-26-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
This is the show stopper for me. In cold water, I start to notice that my coordination is deteriorating, as if my brain is issuing commands but my body is no longer responding. When I get out of the pool in such a situation I'll even have trouble walking. Coach Stuart recommends a bathing cap to keep the head warm, and I tried this a few years ago. If it helped, I didn't really notice it. There's not much meat on my body, which may make me more vulnerable, but I no longer try to swim in situations like this. I'll try swimming at a brisk pace to keep warm, but as soon as I notice that my limbs are no longer responding to my commands it's time to get out.
OMG, I just HATE cold water.
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  #74  
Old 05-27-2016
ScoopUK
 
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Thanks everyone, good discussion. I'm going to stick with it and have a chat with my TI coach about using the tempo trainer next time I see him. Right now I can get across a 25m pool in 18-20 strokes if I concentrate but only for a few lengths then it starts to deteriorate. The other thing I'm going to do is make sure I'm holding water properly and not slipping as my arms often get tired. I could be putting too much effort into my pull. I'm in the endless pool next week so will check these things.
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  #75  
Old 05-27-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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So, statistically the elite poolswimmer with a higher DPS is a bit faster then the one with a shorter stroke.
Thats a statistic from an extremely small percentage of the population, with extremely rare physical capabilities.
Can statistical results from this peculiar species be used for the avarage 2min/100m paced adult swimmer?
Is the goal of the elite swimmer the same as the goal of that avarage swimmer?
If we copy one attribute of the fastest swimmers, why not also copy ather attributes from the fastest swimmers as well?
Are those attributes advantagous for sustaining a 2min/100m pace, or are those attributes only optimal for sub 1min/100m paces?
Are those attributes helpfull on its own, or are they only effective in a combination with other certain elite attributes?
Its a bit like food and health studies. Did the people who ate more vegatables lived longer because they ate more vegatables, or because these people generally also smoked less and exercised more ?
Just saying, dont draw too much hardlined conlusions, and be carefull when starting to cherry pick from elites behaviour.
So what are these other stroke attributes that can be seen often in the fastest elites?

- There strokerate is a lot higher than mr avarage (ti swimmer).
- Often they raise the whole foot above the water when kicking
- When swimming relaxed, they raise the arm to the surface at extension.
- The most extraordinary swimmers of this time, Phelps and Ledcky, use a loping stroke.
This strokestyle has become the norm for all swimmers in the 200/400m distances.
- The high DPS often goes together with exceptional flexibility. In the arns department, even under elites, Sun Yangs EVF action is exceptional.
- These are some that come to mind, but when looking at Paltrinieri with his lope and 1 leg kick another thing that was striking was his extreme extension, from an adult swimmers point of view.
This guy doesnt have a very long stroke so I wasnt expecting it.
Body bending and extending to the max on the midline. Elites do it all the time (also look at Thorpe), but should we copy it?

Paltrinieri

Lochte


I am not against long strokes, but I dont like the painted black and white picture of the fast stroking splashing non-aware idiot against the thoughtfull slow longstroking smart swimmer.

Jonty meant that swimmers who trained to maintain a long stroke as they swam farther and faster would be much more successful those who simply focused on swimming longer or harder. Rather than train for the capacity to work harder, focus on creating and encoding the highest quality muscle memories—to make it easier to maintain longer strokes at faster rates. Not only will it require less oxygen to swim any pace, but cardiovascular conditioning still ‘happens.’ Only it’s now specific to the stroke length and rate to which your nervous system is highly adapted—rather than to non-specific hard efforts.

I have shown Shellys stroke thats not long. And there are others that have beautifull strokes that arent that long either.
In my view these swimmers are using high quality muscle memory in their strokes.
Its almost an insult to these swimmers to associate them only with hard, fast, long and mindless swimming only based on their strokecount.
A swimmer who is only able to judge their stroke quality by a strokecountnumber is less mindfull and more non-specific than a swimmer who is capable to sense every aspect of the stroke on the fly and know in the moment what could be adjusted for achieving a better personal optimum. The last one could be a swimmer with a relatively short stroke.
On the same time, most people in the pool do take too many strokes and are too much arm and legs focussed, so I roughly agree with these TI conlusions.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-27-2016 at 08:54 AM.
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  #76  
Old 05-27-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
So, statistically the elite poolswimmer with a higher DPS is a bit faster then the one with a shorter stroke.
Thats a statistic from an extremely small percentage of the population, with extremely rare physical capabilities.
Can statistical results from this peculiar species be used for the avarage 2min/100m paced adult swimmer?
Is the goal of the elite swimmer the same as the goal of that avarage swimmer?
If we copy one attribute of the fastest swimmers, why not also copy ather attributes from the fastest swimmers as well?
Are those attributes advantagous for sustaining a 2min/100m pace, or are those attributes only optimal for sub 1min/100m paces?
Are those attributes helpfull on its own, or are they only effective in a combination with other certain elite attributes?
Its a bit like food and health studies. Did the people who ate more vegatables lived longer because they ate more vegatables, or because these people generally also smoked less and exercised more ?
Just saying, dont draw too much hardlined conlusions, and be carefull when starting to cherry pick from elites behaviour.
So what are these other stroke attributes that can be seen often in the fastest elites?

- There strokerate is a lot higher than mr avarage (ti swimmer).
- Often they raise the whole foot above the water when kicking
- When swimming relaxed, they raise the arm to the surface at extension.
- The most extraordinary swimmers of this time, Phelps and Ledcky, use a loping stroke.
This strokestyle has become the norm for all swimmers in the 200/400m distances.
- The high DPS often goes together with exceptional flexibility. In the arns department, even under elites, Sun Yangs EVF action is exceptional.
- These are some that come to mind, but when looking at Paltrinieri with his lope and 1 leg kick another thing that was striking was his extreme extension, from an adult swimmers point of view.
This guy doesnt have a very long stroke so I wasnt expecting it.
Body bending and extending to the max on the midline. Elites do it all the time (also look at Thorpe), but should we copy it?

Paltrinieri

Lochte


I am not against long strokes, but I dont like the painted black and white picture of the fast stroking splashing non-aware idiot against the thoughtfull slow longstroking smart swimmer.

Jonty meant that swimmers who trained to maintain a long stroke as they swam farther and faster would be much more successful those who simply focused on swimming longer or harder. Rather than train for the capacity to work harder, focus on creating and encoding the highest quality muscle memories—to make it easier to maintain longer strokes at faster rates. Not only will it require less oxygen to swim any pace, but cardiovascular conditioning still ‘happens.’ Only it’s now specific to the stroke length and rate to which your nervous system is highly adapted—rather than to non-specific hard efforts.

I have shown Shellys stroke thats not long. And there are others that have beautifull strokes that arent that long either.
In my view these swimmers are using high quality muscle memory in their strokes.
Its almost an insult to these swimmers to associate them only with hard, fast, long and mindless swimming only based on their strokecount.
A swimmer who is only able to judge their stroke quality by a strokecountnumber is less mindfull and more non-specific than a swimmer who is capable to sense every aspect of the stroke on the fly and know in the moment what could be adjusted for achieving a better personal optimum. The last one could be a swimmer with a relatively short stroke.
On the same time, most people in the pool do take too many strokes and are too much arm and legs focussed, so I roughly agree with these TI conlusions.
ZT, I think a few points are worth making in this context. TI is designed to help adult swimmers, not elite athletes. I think one of the reasons why TI emphasizes stroke length is because this is a major weakness for beginning adult swimmers. One might argue (and you might disagree, as does, for example, SS) that this is the major low hanging fruit for a lot of people. If you are going to criticize TI, I think a more reasonable approach would be to argue that many beginning adults should be focusing on other things than DPS to get the quickest improvement. If so, you should explain what they should instead be focusing on.

Swim schools develop in part as a business and they compete with each other, much as politicians compete with each other for votes in an election. This form of competition leads to some gross generalizations, which is maybe what is irritating you so much. People like to think (in politics as well as in swimming) that one school or party is better than another. In reality, which school or party is best depends on the individual situation. Someone like you, who has devoted a lot of time and effort to study swimming, inevitably discovers that some things about TI make sense in your personal context and other things might not.

On a much larger scale, the human race has spent a lot of time and blood trying to reconcile conflicting religious views. There is a liberal wing of religion in some parts of the world that preaches tolerance and views the details of each religion as an individual matter which should not be determined by society at large. In this sense, they would say that each religion has its own validity and each individual should choose what best fits them.

Swimming schools, in my opinion, lie somewhere in a grey zone between science, politics and religion. As mentioned above, they inevitably simplify the situation and cater somewhat to the illusion that is embraced on a personal level by so many of us that our particular problems can be completely addressed by one school or another. As we all progress in our swimming lives, it should not be surprising that not everything that is put out by a given school addresses our needs. One answer to that is to find a good coach. Another answer is to sample what's out there and decide what's best for you.
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  #77  
Old 05-27-2016
Grant Grant is offline
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Great post Danny.
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  #78  
Old 05-27-2016
ti97
 
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ZT...let me say that I agree that an 'optimal' configuration is not necessarily a one that optimizes each sub-component

sometimes, to brake a vehicle in a shorter distance, the driver releases the brake in order to get out of a skid.....maximal braking friction occurs at the threshold of skidding (sliding friction)

but either way SL and SR are configured, efficiency is what will win in the long run
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  #79  
Old 05-27-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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OK Danny, get your point.(hopefully ;-) )
Most people are here for improving their swim probably.
Thats also a motivation for me to spend time here, but over time the fascination with the swimming puzzle itself has taken over from the interest in my own swimming performance.
And since TI lays a pretty heavy scientific sauce over their teachings I am always hoping to learn a few new things here in discussions that can be backed up with some solid arguments/ interesting articles.
The results have been a bit thin so far.
I guess there are still plenty unanswered questions for years to come and that it cant be expected from TI (or any other source) to have all the answers or see any use in even answering them if it doesnt fit in their general swim teaching system or enhances its teaching potential.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-27-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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  #80  
Old 05-27-2016
ti97
 
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ZT- I am not here to push TI....I'm just saying what has worked for me....

if you have not already done so, I suggest that you attend a workshop given by Terry himself, it would be a very interesting and productive experience probably for both of you....there is only so much that can come through from reading and observation....he is a superb instructor and exceptional coach in my opinion
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