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  #11  
Old 04-18-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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Talvi, if you persevere you will find that overcoming these frustrations and the feedback you get in overcoming them is what really develops insight into swimming. You are halfway there in knowing that you are creating drag, so now you have to lessen that effect. You do this by deliberately altering the timing.
Do this! Recover arm along side of body as you kick gently, if you feel resistance, slow the movement down. Keep other arm extended. Keep slightly on your side and recover and extend that arm almost to the point that it is level with the lower one. Now rotate shoulders and form catch. This is nearly a catch up drill, but what you are trying to achieve is, the feeling of extending the stroke arm smoothly, and not to pull with your catch arm too soon. You now work slightly back from here to find the most effective trigger point.
Your next task once the timing is better, is to create more drive. This is where you develop a feel from your hip to your catch arm, so you are catching rather than pulling. Like I said, these are fine points, but if you make time in your practice for a few lengths of these, then your TI stroke will be so much smoother and powerful. It really does open the door to the 'engine room' of the TI stroke.
Was interesting to read from coach that Japanese TI swimmers race in this manner. It is a subtle and interesting drill, that can frustrate people, but persevere with it, and it will make you are far better swimmer than if you ignore it. I would think that at some point, you would have to come back to this drill to master the stroke, or take a much longer route of trying to master timing during whole stroke practice.

Janos
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  #12  
Old 04-18-2014
kurb kurb is offline
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I am trying to understand Janos's instruction on hip action/underswitch drill a little better. I have spent a good time on the drills, my fore/aft balance is reasonable, but I have zero propulsion. This means that while I am doing the underwater switch or several full strokes (without breathing) I am doing all of this six inches or so underwater. Yes, good fore/aft balance but all of it underwater. Timing poor. Catch poor. Connecting hip to catch non existent.

On hip-action drill Janos says

"To replicate the action of the hips, stand in front of a wall and reach up as high as you can. Now, twist your hip only and see how many more inches your hand can reach. This is the end of Popovs stroke. Can you see how this action moves your body forward, as opposed to a passive roll of the whole body, with a tense core?"

So I stand in front of a wall with left arm down the side along my thighs, the right arm extended to the sky. I can get a few inches of extra reach by moving my shoulder blade back muscles up. Now from this position I am unclear as to what "twist the hip only to how many more inches your can reach". A rotational twist of the hip does nothing for me in terms of height. I a can just a little by moving my right hip upwards with right heel lifting off the ground. That does not seem to do much for me. Appreciate some clarification.

On the underswitch drill you say

"Keep slightly on your side and recover and extend that arm almost to the point that it is level with the lower one. Now rotate shoulders and form catch. This is nearly a catch up drill, but what you are trying to achieve is, the feeling of extending the stroke arm smoothly, and not to pull with your catch arm too soon"

So from the skate position you extend your recovery arm along the side of the bod with minimum drag until it's "level with the lower one". By lower one I am assuming you mean the extended arm. So before the switch occurs your spear hand is somewhere in front of your face. You are still in the fully rotated skate position and you are kicking gently. From there as you begin rotating you core (shoulder and hips together) your extended arm goes into catch. Your catch is still in front of your face. From there you spear to your target with maximum extension ("lean forward") as your catch does its thing. As a novice I have to do some pulling with the catch arm to get some propulsion.
Ok so I am still missing not understanding the hip drill described above and relating it to the underswitch drill.

So given where I am with my swimming (being mostly under the water) I am thinking that I should focus on the underswtich until I can do several strokes at surface level ie get the timing right, feel the catch, connect quick switch to catch arm, ease off on the pull. I am still doing flutter kick rather than 2 bk, and no breathing.
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  #13  
Old 04-18-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
.. Do this! ..
I will :) Thanks.

I've been looking for a way to unpick my stroke for six months now, to go back to "the start", and have been very disappointed with my progress. I just haven't felt I've found anything that did it. But my theory has always been that it's about timing though that's pretty much just been an article of faith.

Do I need to use a 6bk do you think for this drill? I can do the one arm drills using 2bk, very slowly. Those are what introduced me to the bob, which is my current baseline for trying to build a stroke. I just don't want to set too many hares unnecessarily running.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #14  
Old 04-18-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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Talvi, when you are doing this drill, start with a flutter kick to get some speed up, otherwise you will come to a dead stop.
Keep kicking until you are ready to switch sides, and do one kick, then back to flutter until you are ready to go again.
I would not try to incorporate 6bk into this drill yet,just use a flutter, although it is a great drill for working the timing out for TI purposes. I would just use its primary focus, which is creating propulsion.
Coach mentioned sliding recovery arm closer than Terry recommends, and this is what I do too. It lessens drag.
If you are frustrated with slow progress at the moment, I would say stick with these compound drills. When you are practising underswitch, you can throw in a few whole strokes when you are getting a good feeling from the drill, and you will be surprised at the difference in your stroke. There is link somewhere recently with the Israeli TI swimmer doing a perfect demo of underswitch. I would watch this before every swim, and try and replicate it.


Janos
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  #15  
Old 04-19-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
.. There is link somewhere recently with the Israeli TI swimmer doing a perfect demo of underswitch ...
I think I posted the link you're referring to, >here<

It was seeing that whole stroke/breathing version of the drill that prompted my interest in it again.



p.s
Jane, I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread ... :/
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #16  
Old 04-19-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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I seem to have leapfrogged/buried your post Kurb (apologies), and am having the discussion I tried to start on my own thread here ion Jane's thread instead! :( So anyway, this is my take on Janos' advice and exercises, FWIW, as I find similar issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurb View Post
...On hip-action drill Janos says
"To replicate the action of the hips, stand in front of a wall and reach up as high as you can. Now, twist your hip only and see how many more inches your hand can reach. This is the end of Popovs stroke. Can you see how this action moves your body forward, as opposed to a passive roll of the whole body, with a tense core?"

So I stand in front of a wall with left arm down the side along my thighs, the right arm extended to the sky. I can get a few inches of extra reach by moving my shoulder blade back muscles up. Now from this position I am unclear as to what "twist the hip only to how many more inches your can reach". A rotational twist of the hip does nothing for me in terms of height. I a can just a little by moving my right hip upwards with right heel lifting off the ground. That does not seem to do much for me. Appreciate some clarification....
If I REALLY stretch both hands upwards (i.e stretch, pause, relax into the position, and then stretch again) there is only perhaps a centimetre of extension gained by rotation of my hips and I feel that coming either from my hand being forced into alignment with my spine rather than vertically to my shoulder or from a small vertical rotation of the pelvis.

However, if I place my hands above my head, on tracks, without firt focussing on achieving maximum extension THEN stretching one side only comes with a feeling of rotation of that side's hip. Whether any significant rotation is actually taking place seems moot to me.

The benefit of Janos' description for me is to communicate the feel of that stretch in the hips, i.e from heal through to fingertips, rather than merely in the arm only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurb View Post
...On the underswitch drill you say
"Keep slightly on your side and recover and extend that arm almost to the point that it is level with the lower one. Now rotate shoulders and form catch. This is nearly a catch up drill, but what you are trying to achieve is, the feeling of extending the stroke arm smoothly, and not to pull with your catch arm too soon"

So from the skate position you extend your recovery arm along the side of the bod with minimum drag until it's "level with the lower one". By lower one I am assuming you mean the extended arm. So before the switch occurs your spear hand is somewhere in front of your face. You are still in the fully rotated skate position and you are kicking gently. From there as you begin rotating you core (shoulder and hips together) your extended arm goes into catch. Your catch is still in front of your face. From there you spear to your target with maximum extension ("lean forward") as your catch does its thing. As a novice I have to do some pulling with the catch arm to get some propulsion. ...
I found your working through of Janos' instructions helpfully mirroring my own. Your point about the dead spot is what I experienced when doing the drill in the water but hadn't been able to bring to mind on dry land! I think the moment you identify should be brief not extended unless your fluter kick and breath control can support its extension.

All this is very reminiscent of what emerged for me from practising the catch-up drill. This was the sense/awareness of a set-up position prior to executing the pull. What I've been experiencing and playing about with, without any drills, is to pause the spearing arm, delaying the spear so that spear extension has not been effectively completed at the time the pull is executed. ..... I am beginning to think this is actually what the conversation may be referring to! Ahah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurb View Post
...Ok so I am still missing not understanding the hip drill described above and relating it to the underswitch drill.

So given where I am with my swimming (being mostly under the water) I am thinking that I should focus on the underswtich until I can do several strokes at surface level ie get the timing right, feel the catch, connect quick switch to catch arm, ease off on the pull. I am still doing flutter kick rather than 2 bk, and no breathing.
I think the hip drill as you call it is a way of getting the feel of full extension of the spear and what that extension feels like in the hips, and as the hips are rotating at that same time too it has a spin off as it ties major stroke elements together I think.

Head position is another variable, even between the swimming styles of expert coaches. I find if my head position is too low the timing of my breath becomes more difficult as there is less time available for it and, because I have a ambling pace, there is insufficient bow wave to compensate. Raising my head a little, so the water is not flowing uninteruptedly over it, means I can practice taking my breath a lot earlier in the stroke. This leads to a much more relaxed overall feel in my swim. It also disconnects the head movement from the power-train, something it is not a part of.

Anyway, thanks Kurb, for the opportunity to work this through :)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 04-19-2014 at 11:04 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-19-2014
Raini Raini is offline
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Just a quick question. I have just watched the link with the Israeli TI swimmer demonstrating underswitch drill. Could someone clarify if he is bringing his recovery arm forward with the palm facing downward as opposed to upwards in the other underswitch demos I have watched and would this make any difference. Underswitch is my weakest drill so I have been following this thread attentively.
Also with his recovery arm I noticed he seems to flip his hand up slightly at the end of the extension before the catch. He does this in his other demos too. Perhaps it's just something that's peculiar to him.
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  #18  
Old 04-19-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post

p.s
Jane, I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread ... :/
No worries Talvi, I think I've hijacked yours before now! Besides I read it all with interest - there are many things you've said I relate to in myself.....I swam my 1st mile 4 months before my target date, but have since plateaued and so am starting to analyse everything. Though there are times when I deliberately switch off and just enjoy the sensation of gliding through the water (as being talked about in another new thread 4k non stop) - it helps :)

Jane
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  #19  
Old 04-19-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafaremraf View Post
No worries Talvi, I think I've hijacked yours before now! Besides I read it all with interest - there are many things you've said I relate to in myself.....I swam my 1st mile 4 months before my target date, but have since plateaued and so am starting to analyse everything. Though there are times when I deliberately switch off and just enjoy the sensation of gliding through the water (as being talked about in another new thread 4k non stop) - it helps :)

Jane
I actually came here to beg you to hijack my thread: Spear/underswitch, so it's really nice to read your post! :)

This cross-threading has got to the point now where even those people who look at the videos I posted on it come over here to your thread to comment on them!!! RofLoL :D Could you post something about fishtailing on my thread, if only to make me feel less guilty?! :D

Chasing down another potential rabbbit hole, I know EXACTLY what you mean about switching off. I've been describing it as giving up, by which I mean giving up trying to get anywhere. What seems like aeons ago now (probably 8 months) I posed the question: Why, if we're so in love with swimming do we focus so much on reaching the end? :) I too have found goallessness a salvation in my practice. It's a place I've found I can return to when frustration sets in and I lose the taste of it all :)

Anyway, back to my hijack!! :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raini View Post
Just a quick question. I have just watched the link with the Israeli TI swimmer demonstrating underswitch drill. Could someone clarify if he is bringing his recovery arm forward with the palm facing downward as opposed to upwards in the other underswitch demos I have watched and would this make any difference. Underswitch is my weakest drill so I have been following this thread attentively.
Also with his recovery arm I noticed he seems to flip his hand up slightly at the end of the extension before the catch. He does this in his other demos too. Perhaps it's just something that's peculiar to him.
What I see/infer, from what is possible to see, is that his palm faces his body as it recovers.

I don't see any upward cocking of the wrist in his spear though. What I see is him breaking his wrist at the end of the spear , like Shinji does, and then turning his palm inwards before pulling.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
..... Keep slightly on your side and recover and extend that arm almost to the point that it is level with the lower one....

Janos
Did a few lengths of this yesterday (1x25m and 1x50m), it was ok. I got enough propulsion without having to worry about kicking any different way, but I don't really understand the detail of the underwater recovery. Even re-reading Janos' advice I'm not at all confident I understand the phrase "level with the lower one".

Also., palm up against chest then turns down before spearing or during?

I got so wrapped up in the strange feelings in the underwater recovery that from time to time I found myself forgetting to catch! :D
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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