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  #31  
Old 05-04-2013
Ghul Ghul is offline
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As far as I can see the disagreement on stroke timing is actually quite small.
I think the other school suggests starting to bend the wrist when the other
arm ends its stroke but catching quite slowly so it is still a front quadrant stroke.
I seem to remember reading in the yellow book that the catch should instead
start when the hand passes the shoulder. I guess the later start to the catch preserves the streamline longer but risks a rushed set-up. As I think Charles
is saying a deep spear will have the arm close to stroking position so the catch
can afford to start later and not be rushed, though presumably at some cost
to streamlining.
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  #32  
Old 05-05-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Assuming that...you were already breathing every stroke? or were not breathing every stroke?
I try to use bilateral breathing. When I get my SPL down to say 14 for 25yrds I feel that I am just not breathing as smoothly as when I am at say 19 simply because there is more time between breaths.

I find for me the most comfortable SPL is 18-20, I am 5'7.

Thats what inspired my 'stroke faster breath more often' comment.
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  #33  
Old 05-05-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghul View Post
As far as I can see the disagreement on stroke timing is actually quite small.
I think the other school suggests starting to bend the wrist when the other
arm ends its stroke but catching quite slowly so it is still a front quadrant stroke.
I seem to remember reading in the yellow book that the catch should instead
start when the hand passes the shoulder. I guess the later start to the catch preserves the streamline longer but risks a rushed set-up. As I think Charles
is saying a deep spear will have the arm close to stroking position so the catch
can afford to start later and not be rushed, though presumably at some cost
to streamlining.
Voilā, spot on. A matter of I donno, path leading to a working stroke. Paths are different, but at race pace I don't think the strokes are that different. There are not that many ways to optimize propelling yourself over your catch. It's just an arm, and half a body you know. So there pretty much every successful swimmer look alike. What proceeds this leave more room for individuality.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-05-2013 at 02:01 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-05-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by machelett View Post
If I remember correctly from reading the TI book front to back a few years ago, proper swimming is opposed to what instinct tells you. For example, instinctively lifting the head to breathe is--well what is the politically correct way of phrasing it nowadays--an opportunity for improvement.

So if in this case your instinct tells you something is wrong with the metric, maybe that's an opportunity to rethink if instinct is a good judge when it comes to swimming. ;)
Thanks for the tip...Ive thought this through a lot. I was referrign to swim coaching instinct, not human swimming instinct. ;)
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  #35  
Old 05-05-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Best example would be this clip there. As usual, I'm out of shape on this clip. It was recorded in 2011, I hadn't swam since 2010. But it gives you an idea. At 1.3, the hand moves very very slowly into catch position, but it does move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmM0LIuWa8

But that's me. Spear/wait works equally well I guess.
As soon as the hand drops out of streamline (and we are actually teaching to spear out of streamline, into a partially already dropped position), the body starts to slow down. it's always going to be a balance of the top speed of a stroke, how much slowdown occurs over what period of time, how much energy it takes to speed back up and all of this must be balanced with the swimmers biomechanics and strength. I don't think you can put an arbitrary number on all of this (although it would make a really nice calculus problem).

I agree that when the hand does move it should generally move slowly rather than quickly for 2 reasons
1) If it moves quickly too soon, the hand is probably slippping
2) If it moves quickly too late the body will have slowed down too much.

I think the only disagreement is that we are putting a number on "overglider". Ive ready Adam's post when he first wrote about it and it simply doesn't sit well with me...nothing to do with Ti vs SS vs Trainign Day vs. Steel City, etc. I just think there is a piece missing (this is my coachign instinct and the 'proof' of my feeling I fear is math that is beyond my current ability).

but thinking about it is fun. :)
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #36  
Old 05-05-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I try to use bilateral breathing. When I get my SPL down to say 14 for 25yrds I feel that I am just not breathing as smoothly as when I am at say 19 simply because there is more time between breaths.

I find for me the most comfortable SPL is 18-20, I am 5'7.

Thats what inspired my 'stroke faster breath more often' comment.
Why not practice breathing every 2, 3 or 4 strokes? Provides a lot of options depending on your effort level. Easy swim? 4 strokes. Moderate swimming? 3 strokes. Fast swimming 2 strokes. Makes a nice descending swim set. Swim easily enough that you only 'need' to breath every 4 strokes (without holding your breath), next repeat increae the effort so that you require a breath every 3, and again increase the effort ot require a breath every 2.

Doesn't really matter what your tempo is...you adjust the tempo for your desired speed/effort combo (and of course your length)
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #37  
Old 05-05-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Why not practice breathing every 2, 3 or 4 strokes? Provides a lot of options depending on your effort level. Easy swim? 4 strokes. Moderate swimming? 3 strokes. Fast swimming 2 strokes. Makes a nice descending swim set. Swim easily enough that you only 'need' to breath every 4 strokes (without holding your breath), next repeat increae the effort so that you require a breath every 3, and again increase the effort ot require a breath every 2.

Doesn't really matter what your tempo is...you adjust the tempo for your desired speed/effort combo (and of course your length)
You mean 14 SPL but breath on one side every 2 strokes as opposed to 19 SPL bilateral (3 strokes)?

Edit:

Sorry I guess I misunderstood. I wasn't talking about effort, I was comparing 14 SPL with 19 SPL swimming with the same amount of effort if such thing is even possible. What I was saying is that I feel more comfortable at 19 due to more frequent breaths. Not sure how to exactly measure effort in this case.

Last edited by Rincewind : 05-05-2013 at 06:24 AM.
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  #38  
Old 05-05-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
You mean 14 SPL but breath on one side every 2 strokes as opposed to 19 SPL bilateral (3 strokes)?

Edit:

Sorry I guess I misunderstood. I wasn't talking about effort, I was comparing 14 SPL with 19 SPL swimming with the same amount of effort if such thing is even possible. What I was saying is that I feel more comfortable at 19 due to more frequent breaths. Not sure how to exactly measure effort in this case.
Don't plan it by SPL. I'm assuming in this case that a swimmer has control over SPL and pace to some degree, similar to a jog a trot and a run that runners can do without thinking twice about it.

If you swim easily enough that your body isn't generating CO2 adn not requiring a lot of O2, your SPL should be pretty low and maybe you can breath eery 4th, 5th or even 6th stroke easily (without holding your breath).

Increase your pace...SPL usuall goes up and you rbody generates more Co2, requires more O2. Breath Every 3 strokes.

Now swim even faster. SPL will be highst, CO2 genrated high, O2 needs high..breath every 2.

It's a different way o modulating your pace/effort, but don't deliberately count strokes when doing so unless you have excess bandwidth. Swim easy, breath less often. Swim fater, breath more often. Swim fastest, breath most often. (unless you are racing a 50m sprint)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #39  
Old 05-05-2013
tpamperin tpamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
If you swim easily enough that your body isn't generating CO2 adn not requiring a lot of O2, your SPL should be pretty low and maybe you can breath eery 4th, 5th or even 6th stroke easily (without holding your breath).
That's true, but I find that at extremely slow tempos and speeds, even though the demand for O2 is low, the time between strokes (and thus, between breaths) is increased to the point where breathing every 3 strokes can be more difficult than breathing every 3 strokes at faster tempos and speeds.

But while easy swimming where I'm focusing on the feel of something rather than trying to minimize SPL, I'll often go 4-6 strokes between breaths.

I'm fairly comfortable breathing to either side, and so I usually like to breathe every 3 strokes to preserve symmetry and rhythm. But when that starts to feel a bit too hypoxic for me to retain good form, I'll breathe every 2strokes.

Tom

Last edited by tpamperin : 05-05-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  #40  
Old 05-06-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpamperin View Post
That's true, but I find that at extremely slow tempos and speeds, even though the demand for O2 is low, the time between strokes (and thus, between breaths) is increased to the point where breathing every 3 strokes can be more difficult than breathing every 3 strokes at faster tempos and speeds.
Tom
Yes, that is what I was trying to say, just couldn't find the right way to explain it, thanks.
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