Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-02-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default Freestyle Mastery and 2BK Timing

I ordered the Freestyle Mastery download when it went on sale over the holidays. $41, and already worth it.

At first I was glad that it seemed to be confirming many discoveries I've made myself through mindful practice--so that was good.

But I reviewed it again before swimming today and noticed that in the videos for the 2BK, Terry kicks much later in the stroke cycle than I had been doing--his kick happens as his pressing arm passes his chest.

I started trying 2BK by kicking opposite leg down pretty much simultaneously with the spearing arm. That worked for a while in a rough sort of way.

Later in my exploration of 2BK (just this past fall) I synched my kick to my same-side arm at start of pull and that seemed to be better.

Today after watching the videos, I set out to mimic Terry's timing. To do that, I had to wait until my pressing arm was pretty much passing my chest before initiating the kick. I kept my mental synch with same-side kick linked to pulling arm. A very different feel with that later kick, and a timing that demands a lot of stability from the core to hold motionless so long before kicking. But I was able to drop a SPL (from 14 to 13) at my default "not trying too hard" tune-up. And without trying to be fast, my timing at 13 SPL was about :43-44 per 50m, which would have been normal for 15 SPL.

After about 20 x 25m with lots of rest, then 10 x 50m, to start to learn this new timing, I swam 1650m non-stop to groove the new feeling. (By the way, concentrating so closely on the timing and kick made this an easy 1650, though I have done almost nothing longer than 100m repeats all year). It gave me lots of time with the new focal point. I think what I'm doing differently is:

1) body stays stable and motionless between kicks, with ABSOLUTELY no need for any preparatory motions, because body rotation sets up the next kick ("Flick and Hold" in the Freestyle Mastery sequence)

2) feet stay very streamlined and in contact with each other (i.e. one foot atop the other) between kicks (also seen in Freestyle Mastery)

3) kick amplitude is within body shadow

4) because it proved very difficult to wait for the pressing arm to pass the chest before kicking (a long time to remain stable and motionless), I think I have adjusted by also beginning my catch earlier. Thus, the kick comes later in relation to the catch (waiting for arm to pass chest rather than kicking at start of catch), but does NOT come quite as late in relation to the whole stroke cycle. So there doesn't seem to be as long a time to stay motionless, which helps maintain balance and stability a little more easily.

5) the press feels much steadier and more continuous, with little tendency to have an explosive arm pull that "slips" through the water. The kick also feels steadier and less explosive.

6) I think this is the biggest discovery I've made for quite a while. I think, also, that a month or two ago I would not have been ready for it. A motionless stable body seems to be the key to good swimming, and I'm slowly stumbling my way toward it. Today almost all my attention went to maintaining body position in a motionless balanced state with the necessary motions precisely timed.

So, I encourage people to try out this kind of timing, and I'd be interested to hear from those who HAVE tried it about what they noticed. Thanks!
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com

Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 01-03-2018 at 11:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-02-2018
Grant Grant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sooke, BC. Canada
Posts: 581
Grant
Default Good post Tom

I am in process of recovering from an operation on my right carotid artery to remove the 90% plaque buildup. The Dr says not to swim for another six weeks. This will result in me being out of the water for almost three months. My three swims each week are the high lite of my fitness regime for this 82 year old body.

Your post about the kick timing has me chomping at the bit to explore that timing. I have been kicking a little earlier than what you describe. I will spend the dry time ahead visualising your timing sequence.

Am very grateful for this forum and remember Terry and family with grateful appreciation.
__________________
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
Grant
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-02-2018
Streak Streak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 376
Streak
Default

Very interesting Tom, I had not noticed this subtle timing difference from pure right arm left leg, left arm right leg.
Is this what Terry is doing here?

https://youtu.be/hC8ZZZhabp4?t=48s

I'm a very visual learner so want to make sure.
__________________
Coach Stuart McDougal knocking me into shape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Yp_lgN4mQ
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-03-2018
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Tom, what you say is perplexing me and I wonder if there is just some sort of miscommunication. By the pressing arm, I assume you mean the arm that is sweeping backwards on the same side is the kicking leg. For me the main purpose of the kick is to rotate that side of the body upward. In so doing, the shoulder on the kicking side goes up above the hand, which means that you don't have to "press down" as much to go into a catch. But I don't understand how to get the "pressing arm" back to the chest with no kick, at least if no kick means no rotation. Without rotation, the pressing arm must push a lot of water DOWNWARDS to get back to the chest, which is wasted energy. So are you rotating your body and shoulder upwards, even though you haven't yet initiated your kick? If so, how? What you are describing makes no sense to me. Can you help me to better understand?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-03-2018
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Well, I just looked at the film of Terry that Streak posted, and there is a surprise there. So here is a screen shot of what I see. I'll discuss once I see the picture was downloaded
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-03-2018
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

What I see is that Terry's arm is down by his chest, even though his hips haven't started to rotate upward. In particular, his right hip is down at the same time that his right arm is down. This is fundamentally different from the way I have been trying to swim. So the question for me is how does he do it? I'm guessing that he gets the arm down by waiting patiently for his body to pass it, but I'm not sure of this.

Tom, thanks for pointing this out. Not sure how I am going to deal with this new information...
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 8.35.17 PM.png (18.3 KB, 11 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-03-2018
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
What I see is that Terry's arm is down by his chest, even though his hips haven't started to rotate upward. In particular, his right hip is down at the same time that his right arm is down. This is fundamentally different from the way I have been trying to swim. So the question for me is how does he do it? I'm guessing that he gets the arm down by waiting patiently for his body to pass it, but I'm not sure of this.

Tom, thanks for pointing this out. Not sure how I am going to deal with this new information...
Danny: that's exactly the apparent paradox or non-sequitur that I was struggling to cope with a couple of weeks back (Form/Technique/Mindfulness Thoughts, reply post #2) when Tom first started mentioning his gradual delaying of his kick phase until it was synchronized with the arm propulsion or anchoring phase on the same arm side as the kick side. It didn't make any sense unless I gave up the idea that the kick actually had nothing to do with the rotation, or certainly, at least not with the initiation of the rotation. Once I accepted that (or rather allowed myself to fully give up that idea) I was OK! But then I had to explore and search for an understanding of a different mechanism or mechanisms driving the body rotation. (In the Terry video, the discrepancy is not quite as striking, but even though his hips have not come around past 0 degrees at the time of the arm stroke, but they have already started to rotate, which is before the kick, so the kick is not what drove the start and most rapid acceleration of the rotation.)

Tom: I have been in awe of your capabilities. But now I am even more impressed. Even with the familiarity of years of settling in of technique, you have the discipline and the focus to dismantle and reassemble -- basically to change fundamentally your stroke sequence pattern and to burn it it through careful repetition! You continue to be an inspiration and a much needed cattle-prod for me to continue to be thoughtful of my status quo, and the little changes and improvements that can continue to be made!

Last edited by sclim : 01-03-2018 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-03-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I am in process of recovering from an operation on my right carotid artery to remove the 90% plaque buildup. The Dr says not to swim for another six weeks. This will result in me being out of the water for almost three months. My three swims each week are the high lite of my fitness regime for this 82 year old body.

Your post about the kick timing has me chomping at the bit to explore that timing. I have been kicking a little earlier than what you describe. I will spend the dry time ahead visualising your timing sequence.

Am very grateful for this forum and remember Terry and family with grateful appreciation.
Grant,

good luck with your recovery. I think it's great you're swimming seriously at 82. I hope I can emulate your longevity!
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Very interesting Tom, I had not noticed this subtle timing difference from pure right arm left leg, left arm right leg.
Is this what Terry is doing here?

https://youtu.be/hC8ZZZhabp4?t=48s

I'm a very visual learner so want to make sure.
Streak,

yes, that looks like the same kick timing I saw in the Freestyle Mastery videos, though he does seem to do more of a pre-kick upward motion, with more knee bend than I feel like I was using today.

If you look at :48-49 in the video you posted, you can see this timing pretty well with a left side kick/pull. The kick doesn't begin until the pressing/pulling arm is at his chest--a later kick than I have been doing before I tried this today.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-03-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Danny: that's exactly the apparent paradox or non-sequitur that I was struggling to cope with a couple of weeks back (Form/Technique/Mindfulness Thoughts, reply post #2) when Tom first started mentioning his gradual delaying of his kick phase until it was synchronized with the arm propulsion or anchoring phase on the same arm side as the kick side. It didn't make any sense unless I gave up the idea that the kick actually had nothing to do with the rotation, or certainly, at least not with the initiation of the rotation. Once I accepted that (or rather allowed myself to fully give up that idea) I was OK! But then I had to explore and search for an understanding of a different mechanism or mechanisms driving the body rotation. (In the Terry video, the discrepancy is not quite as striking, but even though his hips have not come around past 0 degrees at the time of the arm stroke, but they have already started to rotate, which is before the kick, so the kick is not what drove the start and most rapid acceleration of the rotation.)
I'm going more by feel and copying what I saw, and haven't thought the kick mechanics through as thoroughly as you do (which is one reason I love this forum--diversity of approaches and generosity to share insights). I'll try to pay attention when I swim again and see if I can feel anything to help me understand what is happening, and how. But I have heard Terry say on some videos about "nudging" the hip down--rotation of hips starting somehow WITH the hips themselves, in other words. Do you think that's what is going on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Even with the familiarity of years of settling in of technique, you have the discipline and the focus to dismantle and reassemble -- basically to change fundamentally your stroke sequence pattern and to burn it it through careful repetition! You continue to be an inspiration and a much needed cattle-prod for me to continue to be thoughtful of my status quo, an the little changes and improvements that can continue to be made!
Thanks for the kind words! I'm likewise inspired by all the deep analysis that goes on with this forum, and the sharing of ideas and experiences. As for the kick timing experimentation I've started, I think that one gets better at shifting timing around over time, as new awarenesses rise seemingly without prompting or intention. I remember how sudden my perception was that my kick had suddenly synchronized itself to the same side pulling arm when that first happened--it just took time for that awareness to take hold in my consciousness. But once the awareness is there (that's the magic part for me), then it becomes relatively simple to consciously manipulate the timing, etc. I don't think I could have moved the timing so easily if that new awareness hadn't developed.

Early days yet (i.e. day 1!), but I'm keenly interested to see where this later kick takes me.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.