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  #91  
Old 05-18-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
1:33/100 at 13 SPL is great swimming--good work on that!

I usually find that extra spearing effort to really stretch out like that gives me speed but really raises my perceived effort level. Is that how it felt to you?

Your post reminds me of Charles comments to me a few years back--he was a big proponent of not counting strokes or aiming for a certain SPL during your fastest efforts.
Tom, could you explain the context of this, please? I know you are serious about stroke counts, so I'm very interested in your take on when not to count, and why not.
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  #92  
Old 05-19-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Thanks Tom,
I was surprised at those time and lowish SPL, I figured that after being able to repeat them for 4 or 5 100's that it was not a fluke. Something else to build upon.
I did not notice any extra perceived effort due to the extra stretch but it may have been masked by the overall extra effort to get these fast times. Will concentrate more when I hit the pool again on Friday.

Sclim, my opinion is that I don't count where I need to have a lot of concentration on other focal points. I also don't want the count to determine the pace and sometimes feel that this could be the case at higher rates.
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  #93  
Old 05-19-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Thanks Tom,
I was surprised at those time and lowish SPL, I figured that after being able to repeat them for 4 or 5 100's that it was not a fluke. Something else to build upon.
I did not notice any extra perceived effort due to the extra stretch but it may have been masked by the overall extra effort to get these fast times. Will concentrate more when I hit the pool again on Friday.

Sclim, my opinion is that I don't count where I need to have a lot of concentration on other focal points. I also don't want the count to determine the pace and sometimes feel that this could be the case at higher rates.
I would have thought that if counting was unusual for you, then you might not have been 100% aware of how long your stroke was when you were going all out for your fastest time, but not particularly concentrating on keeping the stroke long. After being surprised at your faster pace without particularly more effort, merely by stretching your stroke out, it might have been interesting during your all out pace how much of that pace was achieved by good stroke mechanics maintained in the face of diminishing time per stroke.
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  #94  
Old 05-20-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Tom, could you explain the context of this, please? I know you are serious about stroke counts, so I'm very interested in your take on when not to count, and why not.
I remember Charles used to post about how swimmers ought to swim their fastest/sprint repeats without counting strokes at all; I'm not sure I can explain his rationale for that from memory. It may have been to encourage faster tempos and an intuitive approach to swimming without undue focus on a particular SPL at high speeds.

I almost always not only count strokes, but also decide what SPL I'll use before I begin each repeat. I'm comfortable at 13-16 SPL so can switch gears as needed, and that's always an interesting experiment. I've counted for so long that it takes almost no conscious effort to have the stroke count register itself in one part of my brain while I am thinking of other focal points.

But when working to get comfortable swimming continuously for long distances (as in last year training for my 10-miler), I focus on ease and relaxation, not SPL. Besides drilling, that kind of "relaxing into long distances" practice is about the only place where I may not keep track of SPL.

That said, my recent "fast recovery" experiments started when I wanted to see how a faster above-water portion of the stroke would affect my speed and SPL. So, when I started that, I set out with no pre-determined SPL to hit, and discovered the SPL along the way to fit the new motion. But my brain was still counting even as I focused consciously on speeding up my recovery motion.

Hope that helps!
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  #95  
Old 05-20-2016
Streak Streak is offline
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Tom,
You asked about fatigue when trying a longer stretch. That did not seem to bother me much but when I tried quick recovery I felt fatigued. I think my problem is that I was not able to do a quick recovery without increasing the tempo overall i.e fast recovery = fast pull.
I need to slow the tempo down and do some short repeats to see if I can get it right.
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  #96  
Old 05-20-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Tom,
You asked about fatigue when trying a longer stretch. That did not seem to bother me much but when I tried quick recovery I felt fatigued. I think my problem is that I was not able to do a quick recovery without increasing the tempo overall i.e fast recovery = fast pull.
I need to slow the tempo down and do some short repeats to see if I can get it right.
Here is an example of where being able to count without a lot of mental effort might be useful -- you're trying to get a fast recovery, but trying not to affect the rest of your stroke; if you're finally getting it right, it would be nice to have an SPL number to confirm your "off the cuff" opinion or analysis.
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  #97  
Old 05-20-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I remember Charles used to post about how swimmers ought to swim their fastest/sprint repeats without counting strokes at all; I'm not sure I can explain his rationale for that from memory. It may have been to encourage faster tempos and an intuitive approach to swimming without undue focus on a particular SPL at high speeds.

I almost always not only count strokes, but also decide what SPL I'll use before I begin each repeat. I'm comfortable at 13-16 SPL so can switch gears as needed, and that's always an interesting experiment. I've counted for so long that it takes almost no conscious effort to have the stroke count register itself in one part of my brain while I am thinking of other focal points.

But when working to get comfortable swimming continuously for long distances (as in last year training for my 10-miler), I focus on ease and relaxation, not SPL. Besides drilling, that kind of "relaxing into long distances" practice is about the only place where I may not keep track of SPL.

That said, my recent "fast recovery" experiments started when I wanted to see how a faster above-water portion of the stroke would affect my speed and SPL. So, when I started that, I set out with no pre-determined SPL to hit, and discovered the SPL along the way to fit the new motion. But my brain was still counting even as I focused consciously on speeding up my recovery motion.

Hope that helps!
Yeah, I see that developing the skill to generate an SPL number without a lot of extra thinking is very useful. As is the extra skill of being able to prescribe yourself a predetermined SPL value before even starting the set. As long as you also maintain the ability to experiment, i.e. let the SPL set itself and yet being able to simultaneously keep count -- then you have the best of both worlds! I'll try to work more on this myself.
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  #98  
Old 05-21-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streak View Post
Tom,
You asked about fatigue when trying a longer stretch. That did not seem to bother me much but when I tried quick recovery I felt fatigued. I think my problem is that I was not able to do a quick recovery without increasing the tempo overall i.e fast recovery = fast pull.
I need to slow the tempo down and do some short repeats to see if I can get it right.
Yeah, that slow-fast alternation (fast recovery, slow anchor/pull) feels pretty odd, which is why I started that thread to see what people thought of it. It's a pretty remarkable division in the arm motion (suddenly fast, suddenly slow) that will take time to get used to and do it smoothly. But the nice part is, I think I can--and then I'll get faster tempos almost automatically, even keeping SPL constant (if I can keep that patient lead hand, etc). And that will make me faster and keep perceived effort low.

I plan to focus a lot on that next week, and see where it takes me.
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  #99  
Old 05-21-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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I'm going to post in Tom's other thread...

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...?t=8686&page=2
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  #100  
Old 05-21-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think the increased tempo is caused by the still intact connection of the under and above arm when you first try to speed the recovery up.
When you do it more and make the recovery much faster than the underwater arm action, this connection gets looser and you start to move left and right side of the body more independant.
Thats when the recovery arm can do what its wants without influencing the underwater arm directly (but still by its weight pressing on the low arm).
Than the speeding up action of the underwater arm vanishes and you are swimming at the same strokerate again, only with a recovering arm that has more movement options as before.
Its a bit like first learning catchup from a connected windmill like timing .Those swimmers also speed up the pull automatically if they recover faster.
Interesting is see how your balance reacts on the recovering arm and its different action.
Do you support it with the opposite leg kick or with the underwater arm?
Plenty to play with.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-21-2016 at 08:56 AM.
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