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  #71  
Old 01-09-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Coming into my first tumble, if I just miss my 21st breath (likely, if I'm fresh), I do the tumble at about 20 on the strength of my 18th stroke breath, tumbling then push off, and first 2 strokes without breathing only to breathe on 3. No wonder I'm oxygen starved. And it just escalates.
At the risk of copying, note that Sung Yang often takes two breaths "on ones" before a turn and again after a turn.

Can't deny the body its need for O2. It's a good tool to know and feel when you need more air than breathing bilaterally on 3's, and it can keep you from accidentally creeping faster and faster, so that's great for pacing over long distances. But in long swims I've become more and more flexible with allowing myself a breath on 2 or 3 back and forth depending on how I feel, sometimes taking a breath on 1 to switch sides, then occasionally stretching to 3 and 4 to see "where I'm at" with regards to pushing the envelope of what I'm capable of, cardio-wise. Anyway, rigidly holding to breathing on 3's and having to hit the stroke count can be limiting.
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  #72  
Old 01-10-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Anyway, rigidly holding to breathing on 3's and having to hit the stroke count can be limiting.
I fully agree here. I'm only on the rigid-3 count because 1) I'm learning the skill of counting and 2) my grasp of assessment of stroke efficiency in real time is poor, so at present, all I've got left is SPL (to help give me feedback on my stroke efficiency). So the stroke count is only a training tool. But I agree, the ability to snatch a breath on either side at will, and without interrupting basic stroke rhythm according to need should be a fundamental performance (i.e. race) skill to shoot for.

Last edited by sclim : 01-13-2016 at 03:06 AM.
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  #73  
Old 02-12-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Fumbleturns will become fabulous turns before 500 are completed. I'm only mid way through that number I think. I'll add 500 more to my short term goals on my signature once I've completed my 50 50m task next week.
Hey, Andy, I just noticed your signature goals, and re-read your reply, and realised, working backwards, that despite being a fast swimmer (by my standards) apparently you are not proficient at tumble turns, if you have to make it a specific project to do them and keep track of your cumulative score. I had always assumed that to get the 50 m times you have got you must have incorporated tumble turns into those sets. Apparently not.

How are you approaching the tumble turns? Doing one every few lengths? Or just working on them in isolation?

If you follow the "Awkward Breathing On One Side is Actually Due to Balance Problem!" thread you will see now that I am committed to doing 50m descending sets with TT and pool clock timing. To keep the playing field level, I am still keeping to breathing only on my awkward side (except extra breaths specifically in relation to before and after tumble turns), but now I have decided to re-introduce tumble turns on every 50m, no matter what happens.

I have been doing sessions of 50m x 16 starting from TT 1.40sec descending by 0.01 sec at 2:00 sendoffs for now, with a break every 4 repeats to do random drills and explorations for 100m, then start again. I'm going every morning on week days.

The results are interesting. Initially I spent a lot of time at the bottom of the pool in a dazed tangled mess. Now I can get the first 2 or 3 tumble turns quite clean, and the times and SPL values on those 50s are quite impressive, for me. Then things start to fall apart, but no where near like what they used to. In other words the time penalty as I descend the ladder compared to the times I used to get before I was trying tumble turns is getting less.

Even when I flub the tumble turn badly, my recovery return length of the pool is not a total disaster like it used to be. Apparently I have better presence of mind, and can catch my breath back more easily, and regain my lost form. The specific practices breathing on consecutive strokes ("goofy breathing") have been really helpful. I can catch a breath whenever I need to, and it doesn't throw off my whole rhythm. I am also learning to catch extra breaths before the turn, too.

I should probably add tumble turn drills to my drill repertoire, but I have so many priorities it's hard to keep them in order!

So in in answer to the question of the thread -- lots of things, but shortness of breath, air hunger and panic seem to be prerequisites, but the last common path seems to be a loss of concentration and a breaking down of technique and skills sets which perhaps have been the most recently learned, or at least are the most fragile in the face of distraction and panic. It's certainly not as simple as a muscle fatigue thing.

Last edited by sclim : 02-12-2016 at 04:39 AM.
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