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  #1  
Old 05-25-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Question on Lack of Forward Direction

I have been working on breathing with ease and also trying to incorporate more distance without the huffing and puffing.

While doing this, I noticed that sometimes (not frequently) it seems like all of a sudden, I hit a brick wall and forward direction is stopped for a few seconds. I know that 2 things that could cause this.
1. Pause at hip for the recovery arm
2. Lead hand has fingers or palm facing upwards.

Pretty sure I am not doing either of these.

Are there any other possibilities that I could look at?

Shery
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  #2  
Old 05-25-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sherry,

seems you're producing some drag anywhere. Knowing some of my own flaws I'd say FWIW:

1) Head-spine-alignment OK? Ankered head in LL-position?

2) Spine-hip-leg-alignment OK?

3) Core stable without fishtailing?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #3  
Old 05-25-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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in the early days as I was rebuilding my stroke and learning TI, this happened to me a lot. on each stroke, i would pay attention to the rate at which the markings on the bottom of the pool would go by. i noticed that i would generate more velocity on my right spear/left stroke than on my left spear/right stroke which confounded me for months as i am right handed and you would think (early in my learnings) that a right handed stroke back would yield more velocity! also, on every breath, i would take it, and then as i turned back down i'd notice that i came to a complete stop every time i took a breath! i am a right side breather, so this was an additional frustrating element that added to the lack of velocity on the left spear/right stroke.

how did i solve this? for me it was:

1. my balance on the "edge" of my body when in Skate, like when you've stroked and now recovering, was poor during swimming. i was falling during every stroke's glide phase which increased drag. i focused on working on Skate and staying in Skate form during each micro-moment in the glide phase of each stroke.

2. my 2BK timing was a bit off. I was kicking too soon on one side and it was holding back my full propulsive potential. Gotta wait until the hand drops into the water before kicking to send it on its way!

3. during breathing, drag increases a little bit even if you're breathing with good form. if you're breathing with bad form, this gets magnified due to the head reaching and arched body, and other things that may be happening to push your head to air. i focused on first getting the head low in the water and not letting the lead arm drop as i turned to air. i also worked on making the breath independent of the stroke itself, meaning the stroke doesn't stop and i just take the breath in the middle of all that. I also added a little bit more of stroking power on the breathing side to compensate for the tiny increase in drag.

4. Also i needed to watch my legs from splaying out just that little bit when i turned to air. I practiced keeping my legs together whenever I was in between 2BK kicks. Again this is a drag reducing focal point.

your issues may not be the same as mine. i just listed them to show you what my examination and experimentation yielded.

so all in all, it's about drag reduction during the glide phase, and making sure you're generating propulsion well during the switch, although i would emphasize the drag reduction first as TI does. adding power to a drag heavy vessel is not going to yield good results!

if balance and streamline are good during drills, then i would look at the "falling during Skate" aspect which can happen regardless of either seem good during drills, which are more static situations, so it's about side-side balance and not front-back balance while moving in stroke.

remember that if we can sit on a canoe and take a strong stroke with a paddle and the canoe glides for a while, why do we stop when we do the same with our bodies?
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Thanks for your pointers and will try these out today. I think your comments on skating (#1) falling during glide phase and also point #3 with focal points being keeping a low head low in the water and not letting the lead arm drop, will be the first that I try out.

I still have not really incorporated the 2 bk into my swim, but I do have to admit that I am not really sure what my legs are doing.

BTW, when I warm up, I do 4 lengths of skate, stroke, stroke, stroke, skate. I think I will do more of these to make sure I am making the most of the glide phase.

Will let you know how these work out

Sherry
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Werner

Good points about alignment and core stabilization. Have been trying to get some good underwater shots to see about alignment, but haven't been able to do this. Too many people in pool lately. When doing skate drills, I sometimes feel as if my head and spine are aligned, but not aligned with the legs.

I do have to admit that I have been concentrating on bilateral breathing almost exclusively. I can see the need to go to the pool later in the day and focus on this alignment issue. Funny thing is that my husband and I are retired and yet we seem to have less time than when we were working.

Sherry
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2015
lloyddinma lloyddinma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post

1. my balance on the "edge" of my body when in Skate, like when you've stroked and now recovering, was poor during swimming. i was falling during every stroke's glide phase which increased drag. i focused on working on Skate and staying in Skate form during each micro-moment in the glide phase of each stroke.

2. my 2BK timing was a bit off. I was kicking too soon on one side and it was holding back my full propulsive potential. Gotta wait until the hand drops into the water before kicking to send it on its way!

3. during breathing, drag increases a little bit even if you're breathing with good form. if you're breathing with bad form, this gets magnified due to the head reaching and arched body, and other things that may be happening to push your head to air. i focused on first getting the head low in the water and not letting the lead arm drop as i turned to air. i also worked on making the breath independent of the stroke itself, meaning the stroke doesn't stop and i just take the breath in the middle of all that. I also added a little bit more of stroking power on the breathing side to compensate for the tiny increase in drag.

4. Also i needed to watch my legs from splaying out just that little bit when i turned to air. I practiced keeping my legs together whenever I was in between 2BK kicks. Again this is a drag reducing focal point.

your issues may not be the same as mine. i just listed them to show you what my examination and experimentation yielded.
There is no substitute for coach advice!

Coach David, I read a thread a 2 wks ago,where someone had asked you about the 2BK and spearing: learned you had to wait till you were mid-foremost before flickering.
I had been doing it upon wrist entry. It is a little challenging to pick subtleties like that in videos.

However, I did find it in my Shinji's. It has helped.Initially it threw me off and there was some regression trying to incorporate. But together with mental rehearsal and practice, I believe I have it

Also I noticed that keeping, my legs together or as close as possible during the actual rotation propelled me more.
But I dismissed this as making too much of something. Besides, I had no explanation. After all you are not cutting through water with you legs. I was gonna leave Shinji a comment and save everyone a thread. But you have confirmed it. Infact, I am thinking about experimenting with them "touching".

Glad to hear that breathing will always cause some residual drag.

By the way, if you could save me a thread and comment on the difference between stamina and breath control. Starting to think there is one.

Yesterday, my center here in NYC, opened its pool to 50m for the holiday. For the first time ever, I did 2 laps non-stop. I sense this had less to do with stamina. More with me being relaxed and consequently breathing properly. And also my TT now set to 1.39.


Hi Sherry! They say a picture is worth a thousand words. We can take it further and say a video is worth a thousand pictures. By extension then, a video is worth a million words. There are a lot of great TI videos/clips on youtube. Yes everyone has a signature, but you can still pick up valuable tips from little details: how Shinji breathes in sync with his pull or how Terry rolls his head with ease like he is on a bed etc.

Cheers
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Lloyd.

Stillness is the greatest revelation.
-- Lao Tzu
The light of the body is the eye.
-- J. Ch__st.
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  #7  
Old 05-26-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sherry,

Quote:
...I do have to admit that I have been concentrating on bilateral breathing almost exclusively. I can see the need to go to the pool later in the day and focus on this alignment issue.
Jealous about. Thought I'd gotten it last year (some times with 800m slow but every three, that should have been aerobic state)... But for now it's vanished; once more back in one lap right breathing next left side. :-(

Quote:
... Funny thing is that my husband and I are retired and yet we seem to have less time than when we were working. ...
Some friends are telling me the same, it's a little discouraging for my hopes. But it's a sign you live a full live. (And I hope there will be many things I can decide for myself to do.)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2015
tomoy tomoy is offline
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From my experience & watching others, widely splayed legs and/or a bent knee just before the kick which drives rotation is to blame for sudden/jerky slowing.

General drag issues will slow you down in a predictable smooth way, but sudden slowing happens when something massively changes the shape of the vessel. For me, that big kick really drove home the message that the shape of the vessel is more important than the size of the kick.

You can correct this by keeping the legs together and not bending the knee as much, but also by timing your kick to be a shorter duration. Instead of taking half a second to kick, try to make the motion in only 1/4s and keep the legs in the streamline the other 1/4s.

Good post - your observation skills are sharp.
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  #9  
Old 05-27-2015
daveblt daveblt is offline
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In addition to and in combination these tips is to make sure you are not breathing too late which could also cause a little hitch in your stroke .

Dave
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  #10  
Old 05-27-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Coach Dave

You said: if balance and streamline are good during drills, then i would look at the "falling during Skate" aspect which can happen regardless of either seem good during drills, which are more static situations, so it's about side-side balance and not front-back balance while moving in stroke.


Just to be clear, can you clarify falling during Skate? I take it to mean not staying on your side and falling into a flat position. Or do you mean sinking while on your edge?

Yesterday I experimented with some of your findings and found that my old nemesis of not keeping a patient lead hand was still lurking in my stroke. Something else I found, but don't know if it is relevant. I try to maintain a steady trickle of air in exhaling by pursuing my lips. The bubbles are small. As I tire I noticed that the steady trickle became almost a raging torrent. The bubbles were large and that maybe made me feel breathless. When I consciously controlled the exhale and bubbles became smaller, some of the breathlessness decreased. Well I guess it is relevant if it works!

While I am fairly buoyant, I think I need more work on LLR or fish drills and lots more on skate. the skate drill can also have focal points of breathing and awareness of quiet legs. Hope these work

Dave--yes you are right about late breathing. There are many times when I see my recovery arm overhead as I breathe. By then it is too late for that stroke, but I try to remember for the next one. tks for bringing that up.

Sherry
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