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  #1  
Old 06-08-2009
elskbrev elskbrev is offline
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Default immersion diuresis

Immersion diuresis: Is it just me, or does anyone else deal with this?

Between minutes 45 and 60 in an 85-86F pool, I get a full bladder two or three times. (I get out of the pool by 50 min., or else! Haven't tried getting right back in after a 15 min. break.) This only effects me when swimming; not in the rest of my land loving life.

Scuba divers deal with this all the time. See thread at: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ask...-diuresis.html , or "google" it or see how Wikipedia explains it.

Long and short of it is, the pressure of the water causes shift in blood volume which signals to the kidneys that they need to flush fluids from your system. The temperature of the water does not matter as much as the water pressure, but colder water seems to lead to greater fluid loss.

Is it just me? Does this only happen to swimmers "of a certain age?" Do I have a nutritional imbalance? I am usually well hydrated and I eat very well and take no caffiene at all, no carbonated beverages, no alcoholic drinks.

Anyone?

Cindy
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Old 06-08-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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It happens to me. I had a thread called "P is not for Pool." At 45 minutes, I usually have a full bladder. After that, it could refill as often as every 15 minutes. The odd thing is, it doesn't always happen. It happens routinely though.

I work with the bladder issue by changing my activities. I start off with long axis strokes. When I start developing a "ballast," I switch to underwater swimming or short-axis strokes. I might put fins even.

I make sure I drink some water when I visit the loo. I guess it's even more important for us to replace the lost fluid. Oh, and I wonder if we would be good candidates for "sport" drinks.

Hmm, I wonder if things like sodium get flushed out as well. That would be good. The combination of getting rid of (excess) fluids and sodium would be great for lowering blood pressure. heh (I don't have high blood pressure though.)

EDIT: I just read this: "...that also includes a loss of sodium and potassium..." I guess it wouldn't hurt to replace the potassium, though it's important to have a balance between the electrolytes potassium, sodium, calcium, and magnesium. Usually people have too much sodium anyway. (No, I'm not a doctor, so don't take my word for it.)

I hate to publish this info, but I turned thirty...eight not long ago. I think I've had this issue since I started swimming in January 2008 at age 36. One person did mention that "hydrostatic pressure" might be the cause.

This gives a new meaning to "whizzing" by. hehe

(Going to read the linked discussion now.)

Last edited by shuumai : 06-09-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 06-08-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Originally Posted by elskbrev View Post
85-86F pool
Wow, isn't that very warm for a pool? Is it a teaching pool?

BTW, I read that water is a by-product of energy production in the body.
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Old 06-09-2009
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
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I usually get out to "hit the head" at least once during a 60 - 75 minute swim practice. I take my break at 25 - 45 minutes and jump right back in keep swimming.

If I don't need to take a break, I am not adequately hydrated.

What disturbs me is how few other swimmers take a mid-practice break. I suspect that many of them don't hold it for the whole practice.

Clark
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Old 06-09-2009
elskbrev elskbrev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuumai View Post
Wow, isn't that very warm for a pool? Is it a teaching pool?
It could make an excellent teaching pool--4 ft. deep, 25 yd., in a small private club. I chose it to practice TI drills until I am skilled enough for the deeper water at the YMCA. The Y uses way too much chlorine, though, so I may stay here.

BTW...there may be something very healthy going on for those of us experiencing this immersion diuresis. It was this very concept that made the healing mineral baths of yesteryear so healthy. Read all about it in this article referenced in Wikipedia: http://www.ralphmag.org/bath.html . Scientific research has confirmed that head-out or deep water immersion can cure many diseases through the excretion of toxins via copious urination.

There, that's about as medically technical as I want to get on this subject. Glad to know I'm normal. Still don't know whether it's a function of age (forty...eight) or chubby v.s. lean physique (I vary between lean and 3# over), but I guess I can swim with that.

Thanks for your responses.

Swim on!
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Old 06-09-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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It could make an excellent teaching pool--4 ft. deep, 25 yd., in a small private club. I chose it to practice TI drills until I am skilled enough for the deeper water at the YMCA. The Y uses way too much chlorine, though, so I may stay here.
Thanks for the links.

Oh, I should mention that my son, who is 10 years of age now, skips to the loo once while in the pool, then again before we leave.

I think what you might need to learn is how to scull. With that there is no need to be concerned about water depth. Imagine how scared I was swimming in a 3-metre deep pool for the first time without being able to scull and still thinking I would sink like an anchor. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt4J6nJvo

Yeah, when less chlorine is needed, the better off we are. The Y might use more chlorine because it needs to. In contrast, I bet the lonely pool at my local LA Fitness barely needs any maintenance. I'd love to use it, though it's a bit shallow and I don't have a membership.
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Old 06-09-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elskbrev View Post
BTW...there may be something very healthy going on for those of us experiencing this immersion diuresis. It was this very concept that made the healing mineral baths of yesteryear so healthy. Read all about it in this article referenced in Wikipedia: http://www.ralphmag.org/bath.html . Scientific research has confirmed that head-out or deep water immersion can cure many diseases through the excretion of toxins via copious urination.
Wow, like the saying goes, Experience [and learning] is what you get when you don't get what you want. In our case, what we want is the ability to go an entire session without a break.

The article mentions Japan, and Japan's baths are a brilliant example. The classic ofuro (bath tub) is something that a person could immerse in up to the neck. And most people are aware of Japan's onsen (hot springs). I think Japan perfected the art of bathing.

The article didn't say anything about the minerals in the water being important. That's curious. It only mentions the water pressure. In that case, a mud bath might be even more effective?

The article also focuses on the seated position and the pressure differential on the legs. I wonder if people who stay in the horizontal position longer have to pee more or less than someone in a seated position. In other words, do people swimming longer distances need to pee less than people spending a lot of time floating at the wall?

Now I'm curious if total immersion using a snorkel would have a slightly different effect. Perhaps the head being out of the water increases the pressure differential between the feet and head. Or may only the difference between the feet and torso matter. Interesting to think about.
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Old 06-09-2009
madvet madvet is offline
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The answer I have usually heard is related to decrease in ADH which would increase the excretion of "free water" (which means H2O and not excretion of salts). The rationale for that is probably less related to pressure shifts and more related to the decreased peripheral circulation from the cold -- that means more blood volume in the body core, which increases the blood pressure, ADH decreases to reduce the blood volume to normal.

In regard to pressure, I would guess that the MD that posted on that site may be more correct -- natriuretic peptide increases when pressure increases on the veins going back to the heart. "Natriuretic" is not a word that many people understand off the bat, but it is actually simple: "natri" refers to sodium (natrium is the latin and why the chemical abbreviation is "Na"), and uretic means excreted in the urine. When sodium is excreted, water needs to go along with it, so therefore the increased urination.

There is some variation in people's vein distention (and therefore difference with water pressure or not) and also sensitivity to natriuretic peptide. There is also difference in peripheral vasoconstriction in response to cold also.

These physiological issues start out sounding simple, but then get complicated. There is a lot of science known about these things in general, but sometimes individual variations, especially under the stress of performance, are not as well quantified.

I am curious whether there is much science on these issues in relation to long-distance swimmers -- the fluid balance, blood volume shifts, vasoconstriction/dilation, electrolyte balances, could have a significant impact on swimmers going longer than say 5K.
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Old 06-09-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Originally Posted by madvet View Post
There is also difference in peripheral vasoconstriction in response to cold also.
Ah, that is one thing about me. I'm sensitive to cold. (And heat really.) So maybe there is a connection with that sensitivity and the increased urination. Actually, I began researching supplements that help with circulation and oxygenation partly for that reason. (The supplement I use routinely now is CoQ10.)

My hands can get painfully cold very quickly during the winter or when handling cold food. One example is when I take a minute steak, AKA, Steak-Um, and break it into pieces. By the time it's finished, it's likely for me to run my fingers under warm water.

I wonder if the book "Swimming Fastest" covers any of this. It has a lot of physiology theory in it.
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  #10  
Old 06-11-2009
elskbrev elskbrev is offline
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If I extend my swim session long enough, maybe the adjustment in pressure between extremities and core will eventually equalize and then I will not need the frequent breaks thereafter. I should expect the reverse to happen--sort of a decompression--upon exit from the pool.

I am also wondering whether folks with apparent vascular or circulation problems--edema, gout, visible veins in the legs and arms--are more greatly effected by immersion diuresis than those without these characteristics.

Cindy
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