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  #1  
Old 05-23-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Default Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

I have followed the expanding discussion to my initial naive question (on the original "Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm?" thread ) with great interest and satisfaction. I have gained a lot of insight from the contributors' knowledge, from the questions asked and answered, and even from the as yet unresolved issues. This is great guys!

However, for the sake of those trying to follow the thread topic, I have edited the original thread title, because the discussion sort of morphed into Rotation/Catch/Kick synchronization variants. I will start a new thread with this new title, because that's what seems to be the crux of the current discussion, and the discussion can continue here.

Last edited by sclim : 05-23-2018 at 12:33 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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I should add that I'm continuing to practice with this new found awareness of the retarding of rotation of the high side while the high side mail-slot fingr-tip entry occurs, then rapidly (not forcing, just sling-shotting) snapping the rotation into action (maybe with the help of the stretches lats muscle on the high side). I'm experimenting with getting the low side arm catch starting a little earlier, different from my prior focus of being very patient with the lead hand to a fault.

The earlier catch is a little tricky as it starts to get earlier past a certain point -- I had spent a lot of time learning to delay the catch until I had rotated that low side to the high side, and I learned it so well I'm having trouble unlearning it. It seems to throw my new-style (of the past 2 years) balance equilibrium off, but I'll chip away at it. I'll play around with the kick timing too.

So far, it's still early days. I find that I'm not tiring quite as much as I do more repeats -- I'm really trying to do this with a focus on relaxation. I'm not getting any faster yet (or, rather my strokes on a constant TT timer beep still seem to get progressively shorter as I fatigue, but I'm lasting longer, with more repeats possible even at this early stage, so I'm quite encouraged).
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Old 05-23-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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[quote=sclim;65534]

The earlier catch is a little tricky as it starts to get earlier past a certain point -- I had spent a lot of time learning to delay the catch until I had rotated that low side to the high side, and I learned it so well I'm having trouble unlearning it. It seems to throw my new-style (of the past 2 years) balance equilibrium off, but I'll chip away at it. I'll play around with the kick timing too.[quote]





I also mentioned in a previous thread that for about the past year and a half to 2 years that I was also trying to work on an earlier catch because my stroke was almost like a catch up stroke. I think the reason and why this all started is because in the original book Total Immersion it mentions that when your hand enters the water 'your arm reaches and I mean reaches like stretching for something on a high shelf'. With this in mind I swam for many years like this but my spearing arm was too rigid and at the same time I was also relying on that arm as an aid to help balance also by keeping it out there so long while I was leaning on my 'buoy '. I think it was also causing a little late breath timing .So now with much practice and better balance that I have found with my torso I reach out with a very relaxed arm and a feeling like I am reaching with my shoulder and not my fingertips along with a pinky down entry so whole arm is relaxed and ready for the catch just as the high arm is ready to enter the water .Like you mentioned it can be hard to correct old habits.

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 05-23-2018 at 04:00 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2018
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Hi sclim,

Thanks for starting a new thread and a fun subject to discuss, but I think you're missing the most important part, the arm that's above the surface, recovery arm. I think we make the mistake of separating movements/parts into different depts or somehow all are mutually exclusive - and that's largely due to the traditional language of one arm catches and pulls or "pulling arm" and the other recovers (until the next pull) or "recovery arm", and legs kick. This implies one is active below the surface (catch/pull) while the other is inactive or resting above the surface (recovery).

I use the language neutral, "high side" and "low side" arms (Boomer, Kredich), neither imply action or rest. And I view what happens above the surface (in free/back/fly) directly affects and *connects* all movements below the surface.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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Old 05-23-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi sclim,

Thanks for starting a new thread and a fun subject to discuss, but I think you're missing the most important part, the arm that's above the surface, recovery arm. I think we make the mistake of separating movements/parts into different depts or somehow all are mutually exclusive - and that's largely due to the traditional language of one arm catches and pulls or "pulling arm" and the other recovers (until the next pull) or "recovery arm", and legs kick. This implies one is active below the surface (catch/pull) while the other is inactive or resting above the surface (recovery).

I use the language neutral, "high side" and "low side" arms (Boomer, Kredich), neither imply action or rest. And I view what happens above the surface (in free/back/fly) directly affects and *connects* all movements below the surface.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Hey Coach Stuart: Thanks for paying attention and gently correcting! Actually I do understand that ideally when the whole body integrates the various movements the effect of the whole concert is greater than the sum of the isolated parts. But I also understand that it's not necessarily happening correctly for me at present, so my dissection is just to make sure that I didn't unwittingly get my sequences grossly out of order or grossly unbalanced to the side or to the centre at the wrong moment etc., Hence my current obsession with getting timelines and checkpoints as absolutely precisely as I can estimate precisely.

But yes, the ultimate goal is to get the corrected time and path of the various part to flow smoothly and as naturally as possible once I understand or confirm that my path and trajectory and sequencing is appropriate.

I refer to "high side" and "low side" with neutral significance -- only to make sure that the other discussion participants understand which specific side I'm referring to. The whole discussion exercise has led to one very useful insight for me so far -- the realization that the rotation can lag behind or follow exactly in phase with the entering fingertips. By playing with this lag or phase shift I have discovered that a bit of a shoulder rotation lag can give rise to a bit of a subsequent rotational whipping around, like a rapid corkscrew which seems relatively effortless and seems to help the spearing arm and relaxed "vaulting" over the anchoring arm (or whatever you want to call it).

Likewise, I refer to the "recovery" arm only to identify the one that is above water on its way to re-entry (as a synonym for "high side" arm). But I take your point that it is not necessarily inactive or passive, nor is the lower one working harder or anything like that, although I remain open to your reminders not to mentally apply such loaded attributes or qualities lest those intrusive thoughts undermine any development of a restful, efficient, core driven stroke mechanism.

I'm sorry, I just re-read your comment and my response -- maybe I missed what you were trying to state -- "the arm that's above the surface"... you didn't finish, except to make the point that we sometimes get distracted into thinking each part is a separate department isolated from the other parts. Were you trying to point out here that the arm that's above the surface is not just passively on its way to get to the insertion point so that it can pull again, but rather is part of the momentum-carrying mass that most efficiently is redirected forward again ultimately to re-enter the water and spear at a slighly downward trajectory to impart forward propulsive force? If this is what you meant, yes I do see that the high side arm movement "connects" with the low side / below surface actions.

Last edited by sclim : 05-23-2018 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 05-23-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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i see it as both arms are connected through the shoulders / upper back so by trying to force one to stay out front whilst the other comes over i am actively working against the natural connection.

i read te ocean walker thread and have been focussing on turning the arms over from the hips/ body, had some great success last night in the pool.

I found that i was really overextending and had to work at holding back the extention after years of "long stroking"

When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable

i brought my entry back to about 1 foot in front of the head which considerably reduced my effort levels

I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness
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Old 05-23-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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So there is my tip "extend to the elbow" not the hand fingertips.

(& no i dont mean "dropping the elbow at forward extention")
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  #8  
Old 05-23-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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so basically the highside arms sets your drop and catch under the water as it comes over (from about halfway through the recovery as it nears shoulder height.
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I'm sorry, I just re-read your comment and my response -- maybe I missed what you were trying to state -- "the arm that's above the surface"... you didn't finish, except to make the point that we sometimes get distracted into thinking each part is a separate department isolated from the other parts. Were you trying to point out here that the arm that's above the surface is not just passively on its way to get to the insertion point so that it can pull again, but rather is part of the momentum-carrying mass that most efficiently is redirected forward again ultimately to re-enter the water and spear at a slighly downward trajectory to impart forward propulsive force? If this is what you meant, yes I do see that the high side arm movement "connects" with the low side / below surface actions.
Yes - and very well said. And if the path and trajectory of the high side arm is wrong, it destabilizes the vessel below (imbalance) which triggers the arm to pull and legs to move (splay) attempting to stabilize/rebalance the platform. I've always heard the swimming mantra through the years, "it's what happens below the surface that counts", but they're missing it's what happens above the surface the vessel below the surface is entirely dependent upon.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 05-23-2018 at 04:33 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-23-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
So there is my tip "extend to the elbow" not the hand fingertips.

(& no i dont mean "dropping the elbow at forward extention")
Just so I understand:

When you said you were "over-extending" (and then you fixed it), and with your other explanation of years of "long stroking"

did you mean

1) the point of entry of the fingertips of the high side hand was too far in front of your head line (so you fixed it by moving the entry point closer to your head)

or

2) the stretching and extension of the fingertip was allowed to go too far past the elbow of the other arm before the other (previously low side and leading) arm catch started

or

3) you were referring to the stretching effort of your spear only after your hand entered, meaning your stretching effort was from the shoulder all the way to the fingertips, but you found later that stretching the muscles only to the elbow kept the forearm and hand muscles more relaxed.

I think you meant 1), but then I didn't understand

"When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable"

and

"I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness"

Please explain the parts in bold, as I'm not clear on what you mean.

Last edited by sclim : 05-23-2018 at 06:48 PM.
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