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  #21  
Old 12-05-2017
efdoucette efdoucette is offline
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A little embarrassed to say but I am recently just discovering rotation. Interesting, the more I rotate the easier the movement through the water seems, described by someone as rolling like a log back and forth. I think this is the "using gravity" theory but not sure. Only on occasion do I go too far and become unstable, but this helps me to find limits. I also find the more rotation the slower the stroke rate is. For me because I am old and stiff the greater the rotation the easier it is to find air. Searching for the right feel, so many trade offs but so interesting and enjoyable.
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  #22  
Old 12-05-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
With full shoulder extention on the outstretched lead arm the scapula of that arm is retracted in towards the spine, now when the other arm starts recovery that scapula will automatically be drawn towards the spine too as a function of the other one pulling in, this will give a higher more stacked recovering arm that can feel easier to recover an will be poised nicely overhead waiting to spear, having the scapula retracted stabilises ths shoulder and should prevent the arm from getting behind the scapular plane although it will be right on the midline.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree the scapula is involved in a proper relaxed-arm recovery motion. I tend to go more by feel than by detailed muscle-by-muscle analysis, but I definitely try to engage a much bigger area of the body for recovery, letting the arms BE MOVED instead of doing the moving themselves.

That said, I'd be very cautious about going for a "stacked" arm. I used to swim that way (misunderstanding advice from the original TI book). I think in the long run it's dangerous for the shoulder. It also reduces the stability of the body--for a stable body position you want wide tracks. That stable platform is essential to good efficiency and core involvement in the stroke. I would never trade it back for a narrow "stacked" entry, having swum with both techniques. So, for me a good recovery means elbow-led, and on wide tracks--not stacked. I try to imagine a good recovery looking like this (head-on view):

^0^
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  #23  
Old 12-12-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I few days ago I started to pay attention to getting a full forward reach with my spearing arm and shoulder. As a result, my torso is rotating noticeably farther onto each side. My hips are also rotating farther.

For some reason I haven't entirely uncovered, this shift is giving me much more momentum with my spearing arm, which comes in on wide tracks and helps add to the rotation effect. I'm also feeling a noticeable increase in power, and a firmer catch where the water feels thick and I feel like I am using my whole arm from elbow to hand as a paddle. My 2BK also feels good with this added rotation and shoulder-forward position.

On average, I've dropped about 1 SPL swimming this way, although I have to be going at least moderately fast to make it work--momentum is a much bigger part of the stroke, and slower speeds don't seem to generate enough momentum. I feel like I'm modestly increasing my effort to swim this way, but gaining back more than I'm putting in.
About a decade ago, Terry came to the realization that he was actually getting an assist from gravity on his entry, and his description sounded very similar to what you are describing. When things are properly timed, the weight of your recovering arm (which is out of the water) can help to power your core body rotation, which in turn helps to power your stroke.

Quote:
So, this feels right. But it got me wondering: how do you know how much to rotate? And can you sustain this level of rotation at faster tempos? Am I on the right track? I'll try to come up with some video to post next week if I can.

Anyone here have any insights about body rotation, momentum, and how to combine it all?
You may have already answered your questions. If you see a drop in your SPL and in your lap time, that's an indication you're on the right track! If you swim with the Tempo Trainer, this will give you an easy way to try increasing your SR by a measured amount and observe its effects. Can you still maintain the same level of rotation at the faster tempo? How does it affect your SPL and lap time?


Bob
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  #24  
Old 12-12-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Do you think this might become less work with more long-term practice? I ask this out of ignorance -- but it seems to me that with the longer reach and more efficient catch, it may require a new set of muscles or some new muscle combination that is tiring only because it's new, or because the small muscles required to make this precise change have not yet been developed. But once the novelty becomes dialled in, you may be able to do it for longer without tiring. I guess the answer would be if the mechanical efficiency of disturbing less water with your longer reach (therefore glide phase) and more efficient catch trumps the extra muscle power (if any) used up in the process.
I experienced something like this with my kick. When I first found TI 18 years ago, I had a wide, flailing, knee-driven kick. I was eventually able to overcome this by doing lots of vertical kicking and training for awhile using Slim Fins, but when I first began to correct my kick, I felt more efficient, but also felt like I didn't have much power. I eventually figured out that during all my years of swimming with my wide, flailing, knee-driven kick, I had been building the wrong muscles, so I had to spend some time building the correct muscles before my new kick became fully effective.


Bob
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  #25  
Old 12-12-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Terry's recommendation was merely a reaction to many swimmers who misunderstood (me too) his yellow (in Germany white) book as to swim as stacked as possible. Focusing in swimming off stomach will be just the right cure to the focus "as stacked as possible".
It's interesting how these things progress: The "stacked shoulders" drills we at one time used in Total Immersion were exaggerated movements designed to correct the underrotation many freestylers were doing. But this caused some swimmers to overrotate, so Terry cranked back his instructions a bit.

The real solution is to experiment. In general, if it feels better and reduces your stroke count while making you faster, you're on the right track!


Bob
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  #26  
Old 12-12-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Coach Bob,

thanks for your thoughts--I appreciate it.

The startlingly "new" feel to this extra rotation faded after a few days. I suspect that's partly because my attention has moved to other things (e.g. keeping core activated while still keeping breathing relaxed), and not because there's nothing left to explore.

Certainly the momentum of the spearing arm seems to aid rotation as you mentioned above.
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  #27  
Old 12-12-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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An unexpected phenomenon occurred today -- or maybe I only recognized or noticed it for the first time. I have this problem of doing an inappropriate double kick (left-right) when rolling right (that is onto my left edge) when the appropriate kick should be a single right kick to help propel the roll

In my various experiments to suppress the double kick I hit upon something that seemed to work -- I rolled right by advancing the roll phase of my shoulders, that is, I introduced a slight twist at the waist to drive the upper torso rotation ahead of the lower torso (as opposed to a stiff log-roll). This allowed the hips to roll slightly later, which seemed to allow the appropriate right single kick, which felt more naturally and in balance, when it finally came.

This was totally unplanned, and maybe was "unleashed" by a spirit of exploration, trying various novel things to make a single right kick more natural, in balance and effective. But I have no idea whether I should abandon it or explore it further. I've never noticed it before, and as far as I am aware I've never done it before. I don't do it on the other (rolling left) side.

I seem to recall some discussion of "twisty" rotation in this forum, the consensus seeming to be that it wasn't a good thing. Perhaps it isn't when done to an extreme (it would seem to me to be quite energy-wasting if done that extremely) but how about "slightly"? It seems to me, examining videos of high level swimmers that some swimmers exhibit a slight degree of twist in their high performance stroke.

BTW: I'm not inquiring if "stacking" is a good thing. The final degree of rotation seems to be no more using this "twisty" mechanism than it was doing it the rigid trunk way. I guess after the kick and hip rotation the bottom half of the body finally catches up with the top half before the top half loses its sense of proportion.

Last edited by sclim : 12-12-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

are you really sure you need asymmetric "twisting" right-left to get rid of the "reflex-kick"? Two thoughts led me to this question:

- As in former threads, I think sometimes working on the "chain" from foot via core to speared hand, you're still swimming as a log, but you're feeling as if you decoupled hips and shoulders...

- Are you sure it is an asymmetry right now, or might it be you found your "new, real" symmetric stroke? (I remember, my Alexander-teacher often told me to lay down straight or stand up straight and relaxed. And when he corrected my limbs and body to real straightness, it felt fairly crooked. Found similar things in my real stroke and felt alignment too...)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #29  
Old 12-13-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Sclim,

are you really sure you need asymmetric "twisting" right-left to get rid of the "reflex-kick"? Two thoughts led me to this question:

- As in former threads, I think sometimes working on the "chain" from foot via core to speared hand, you're still swimming as a log, but you're feeling as if you decoupled hips and shoulders...

- Are you sure it is an asymmetry right now, or might it be you found your "new, real" symmetric stroke? (I remember, my Alexander-teacher often told me to lay down straight or stand up straight and relaxed. And when he corrected my limbs and body to real straightness, it felt fairly crooked. Found similar things in my real stroke and felt alignment too...)

Best regards,
Werner
Good point. It sure feels asymmetric. It's still a work in progress, though. I think it's weird because I have only just discovered actually de-coupling in practice. I'm probably exaggerating it now. I suspect there may be a sweet spot where I may use it to good efficient use but with great restraint, more likely more like relaxing a bit off the "death grip" rigidity I likely now have in my core log-ness.

I suspect this "twisty" roll will merely be a novelty for me, mostly to explore "why" the single kick becomes easier. I'll probably replace it later with a standard rotation, but with a properly learned right kick, once I get the hang of it.

Last edited by sclim : 12-13-2017 at 12:53 AM.
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  #30  
Old 12-13-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Tom: I re-read your original post, and wondered if there is more than one interpretation of your sensation that you are rotating further.

Could it be that you are taking a mental snapshot at the moment of your full spear, and you are noting to yourself that at this instant you are rotated more than you are when you perform yesterday's less intense spear.

If so, then it does not necessarily follow that your eventual maximum angle of rotation is higher than before. It might be that with your increased arm momentum during recovery your body rotation accelerated (increased degrees of rotation per millisecond per millisecond) so that at the point of full spearing you were indeed further rotated than before. But that phase of increased angular acceleration may not have sustained throughout the cycle and if the angular velocity slowed enough towards the end of the cycle you may not have reached as high an angle at the highest point than you thought.

Just wondering.
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